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I noted that Tom Crook has a 1934 Lebaron 840A for sale for $185K.
Can anybody reveal the car’s past.A word or two about it’s
condition and worth. Is it a one of a kind car? Tom’s recent prices
seem to be very reasonable.Does this PA fit into that
characterization?
if this is the same car that I saw several years ago it is not a lebaron ernie follis
It’s a well known car restored in the early 70’s. I have never seen the car in person. Many people have commented along the same line as Erine. The car was sold new in Boston and was still on the east coast in the 50’s and there is a photo of it on the Old Motor web site from 1953. It’s an interesting car. I think Bernie has a history of the car from new. Ed
There are many 33, 34,etc convertible sedans especially that pop up as supposed “LeBaron” bodies. Someone who is an expert in this area should define what is and what is not, and how to determine readily such authenticity.
Bernie Weis knows the history of this car and the history of the restoration back to the 70’s. The car was best of show at an annual PAS meet in the 70’s. It is a LeBaron.
I agree with Ernie on this one. Its a left over body from the year before. Ed.
A “left over” LeBaron body, or just a left over Pierce body (my understanding is that most convertible sedans were Pierce design, built by LeBaron shops, delivered in the white to Pierce factory, thus a body can be LeBaron built but not a Lebaron body….whew, that could be confusing!)
I’ve been watching this car too, and though I couldn’t afford it without major collection change, wondered why it hadn’t sold, as it’s somewhat attractive and Tom is saying by LeBaron….
There were two ways that a Pierce-Arrow (or other cars for that matter) could be fitted with custom coachwork. One was to ship the car to the coachwork company to have the work done. The other was for Pierce-Arrow to purchase several examples of a custom body, have them shipped to the Pierce-Arrow factory and install them there. Two examples of the latter are the Judkins bodied Series 80 coupes in 1926 and the LeBaron sedans of 1931 to 1934. To say that the LeBaron body on the 1934 converible sedan was a left over is a bit misleading. This LeBaron body type was likely in stock at the factory and used for more than one year.
A distinguishing difference would be that the factory Lebaron bodied cars were less of a CUSTOM COACHWORK car than a chassis purchased and delivered to Lebaron, for a one-off body/interior to be made and installed..
A car designed by the collaboration of the Coachwork maker/body designer and the car owner is, in my mind a true custom coachwork car.. The body ‘in stock’ at the factory, regardless of maker is less ‘custom’..
Describing a car as a Lebaron implies a custom-made car, but it the case of the ’30’s convertible sedans, while they are bodies made by a custom coachwork body company, they all appear to be ‘generic’ and are factory built and completed cars..
Still a very desirable car and body style regardless of the ‘supply-line’ history of the car’s assembly.
Just to add to this, in 1925-27, Pierce was supposedly using sheet aluminum for their bodies, and only used steel for fenders, cowls and splashpans.. Well, that’s not entirely correct.. the 7-passenger series 80 touring cars have an all steel skinned body,, but the 4-passenger touring cars, roadsters, sedans, coaches etc had aluminum skinned bodies.
So, who made the steel body parts, or the whole steel-clad bodies for the 7-pax touring ? I don’t believe Pierce had the metal stamping equipment and dies made up to make just the one body style.. I’m sure some other source was used for these bodies. And as mentioned by Paul, for ’26 and maybe ’27 Judkins made the 2 passenger rumble seat coupe bodies, and I want to add, Wilson Body Co of Detroit also made these 2 passenger rumble seat coupe bodies, there are several listed in the roster, the Wilson doors were front hinged, the Judkins bodies had rear hinged doors.
An interesting twist in PA history.
Greg Long
My Two Cents:
The custom made in a “batch” bodies Paul and Greg are referring to are typically called semi-custom in today’s collector car vernacular. While they may not be as special as a full custom they do usually exhibit custom design features not found on a standard body.
A good guess as to the maker of steel bodies Greg spoke of in the 1920s would be Rubay.
On the discussion of “left over” custom bodies. More specifically the 34 LeBarons. I don’t know the Tom Crook car which began this thread. I can tell you this, the idea that a 31 Pierce LeBaron body was left over and put a 34 Pierce is preposterous. I was at Ernie’s place sometime back helping him with the wood on his 34 V/12 LeBaron. While taking a break, Ernie says “you’ve heard these cats were made up with left over bodies from 31 right?” I say “sure always been told that.” Ernie pointed down at the body wood and said “what do you think?” The answer was obvious. No way. The 34 wood is much more complex than a 31 or earlier car. While earlier cars are built from the sills up, the 34 wood frame work has many levels and is built all around the chassis. When viewed in the bare bones it’s pretty clear you could build a new body easier than convert a 31 to a 34.
Maybe a 33 body is built the same as a 34, which is what Ed mentioned. Never seen a 33 that naked before so I don’t know. One thing for sure, LeBaron was building custom and semi-custom bodies in the height of the Depression.
BTW, the quality of the restoration on Ernie’s 34 1248 LeBaron is a real testament to his knowledge and skills.
Happy Motoring,
Rick
This has been a very interesting and informative string with contribution from very knowledgeable folks-I wonder if Mr Crook will get a few pings now.
thanks all!
John
This is a lot of good information. However, I restate my question, after all this discussion, and conjecture, how do we tell a real one in those mid thirties cars?
A partial answer for Tony’s question; usually the custom bodied cars had very prominent door hinges, usually three hinges where Pierce might have used two.
If you look on the back page of the new Roster, the photo is of a Lebaron bodied convertible sedan, this is one of the ‘delivered in the white’ bodies, somewhere I’ve seen a photo of these bodies in the factory.
As for the differences between a ‘semi-custom’ and a true custom.. well that’s gonna be difficult, since a purchaser might go to Lebaron and have a car completed with only a few ‘special’ wants or needs supplied, and since it was completed by Lebaron, it would be in my mind a full custom.. yet it may be indistinguishable from the semi-custom but for maybe a special top design that has since been replaced, or ??
I’m saying that unless you can get under the skin, floorboards, and seats, it may be very difficult if not impossible to distinguish Semi from Full Custom..
And for the sake of the original post and question, I’d gladly own ANY Lebaron or other custom coachwork car.
Regardless of it being a ‘semi’ or ‘full’ custom..
Maybe we can start a discussion with photos of known custom bodies compared to standard Pierce bodies.. I didn’t take photos of my S80 Derham body Town car that would detail the differences. but there are differences.
I always thought that Pierce supplied a running chassis to a body maker, with fenders and cowl, but my Derham TownCar has a different cowl, hood dimensions, windshield posts and cowl vent.. But the differences are subtle, you almost have to have it side by side with another open Pierce car.. Maybe at this Fall’s Gathering at Gilmore I’l take a few new photos showing the differences.
I know that my ‘semi-custom’ Wilson Body coupe has very few differences from the standard Pierce body, I’ll go take a few measurements..
But Tony’s question is about the ’30’s cars, not Series 80’s.
Greg
Apologies to Rick and Ernie, but I’ve studied the P-A close-coupled LeBaron Club Sedan’s for a lot longer than the almost 2 decades that I’ve been in the Society. Rick’s comments about Ernie’s ’34 LeBaron Club Sedan are in conflict to what I have been told about those bodies. Historian and author Hugo Pfau related that LeBaron made 10 of these for Pierce ‘delivered in white’ in 1931. 6 were completed in ’31, one in ’33 that George Slankard has, one in ’34 that Ernie has, and one that was eventually scrapped later as styles had changed. Leftovers were used when possible! I have observed the differences between the ’31’s, the ’33 and the ’34, but nothing I have seen has led me conclude that they do not all carry the same body. Other LeBaron ‘full custom’ club sedans were done during this period, but they do not share this same body.
That said, I know absolutely NOTHING about the particular car that is in question. While I seldom have much social contact with the CCCA, their Museum archives may be as much or more useful than our own in verifying the heredity of the car in question. Contact Dale Wells for their research.
Hi Dave,
I too know “the story” but, when you see the cars naked down to the wood they’re just too far apart. The metal could well have been made in 31 but, the wood is totally different.
At minimum they stripped the metal off and put on a 34 wood frame work. Maybe that’s what Lebaron or someone did but, somebody did just that to make it fit a 34.
Happy Motoring,
Rick
Modern conjecture vs. someone who actually worked at LeBaron? Conjecture vs. archives? Which is a ‘story’?
It’s clear that someone would logically do changes to adapt the bodies to post 1931 frames. The biggest changes would logically be required at the rear end, grilles and fenders. Also trunk shapes are obviously different each year.
Finish work on the ’31-’34 LeBaron Club sedans was supposedly done in Buffalo.
Regarding the original car in question, research the archives with Bernie and the CCCA Museum. Skepticism is valid until facts can be verified.
Dave
It would be very interesting to get two of the same Labaron bodies side by side and take some measurements. the wood structure in the ’34 Labaron of Ernies is very complex, intricate and strong. It looks like a wood structure for a bank vault or suspension bridge.. I saw it many times as the restoration was underway.
It certainly is more robust and complicated than my factory ’33 836 club sedan.
With two cars of different model years and chassis’ side by side and a measuring tape one would be able to tell if the doors, the roof to sill-plates, the trunk depth, the width of the body at roof [rain gutter to rain gutter] and body width at door sills and door hinge to door hinge.. All of these measurements were the same or not.
I seems reasonable that if there were ‘left over’ bodies that it would be feasible to make a new structure to support and tie into the left over body..
And, since Pierce had the experienced body makers and a financial reason to do this it seems reasonable that it could have happened this way,
But I can’t see it happening if the entire body structure would have to be remade to accommodate a much wider frame, creating a wider roof, and back to the body and the trunk..
One day we’ll get two or three of these cars side by side, and get the chance to measure.
Greg L
When addressing whether a car has a LeBaron body on it or not, there are several things to consider. Most importantly; in my opinion is where it was made. There are three choices. Bridgeport Ct, Detroit Michigan, or Buffalo New York. I have some factory paperwork on the cars made in Bridgeport and Detroit including some series numbers and dates of manufacture. Over the years I have made a intense study of all the Pierce Arrow cars with LeBaron bodies, and I think I have inspected 80 percent of them in person. One can use body numbers, body tags, cowl tags, construction methods of the wood and body panels as well as upholstery and hardware to come to a correct conclusion of the car being a “full custom”, “semi-custom” or large batch body job. Pierce Arrow owed LeBaron some 140,000 in very past due accounts, thus It is a sure bet that they were not building and shipping more car bodies to the PA factory after mid to late 31. I could go on in detail about them for many pages, but I think most people would not find it too interesting. In my opinion there is NO Pierce Arrow LeBaron body on ANY Pierce Arrow made after mid to late 1931. Just modified left over bodies placed on later chassis. I have information indicating they made no less than 60 of the convertible sedans in a series of three batches of 25, 25, and either 10 or 15. Does anybody have any information that disagrees with this? Ed
I also have information that indicates that they built more than 10 of the club sedan cars. It is possible not all of them went on Pierce Arrow chassis…….. Ed
Enclosed is a phhoto of my 33 the day I brought it home……. I just had to share it with my PA car mentor Bob Sands. The next phot will show the car that started this post, taken in Boston in 1947 if my memory serves me.
Here is the 34 in question. Ed
