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Hi,
I have read past postings about what lubricants to use where but I am still unclear as to what to use for my particular car, a 1937 Model 1702 V12 rumble seat coupe. I need to fill the transmission, the free-wheeling unit, the differential, and the steering box. I read that 600W is recommended for the transmission but isn’t this too thick for my car? Are there some brands that are better than others for Pierce-Arrows? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Steve
Hi Steve,
For my money, any transmission with synchromesh and especially overdrive or free wheeling units should use GL-1 (straight mineral oil, no additives). I ordered a 5-gallon pail of 90-wt from my local NAPA store and they had it for me the following day. I’m not sure whether they sell it in smaller containers, but one gallon would do you. That’s suitable for the steering box as well. The differential is hypoid and thus requires an Extreme Pressure (EP) gear oil, GL-4. Do NOT use GL-5 (EP with additional additives for limited slip differentials) or GL-6 (synthetic), as those two have additives which may attack the yellow metal (brass and bronze).
After consulting with a Sta-Lube PhD chemist, in 1996 I filled my 1936 diff with GL-6 synthetic for the purpose of cooling it better on a crosscountry trip. What a mistake! In Wyoming I crawled under the car to fill a leaky rear shock and almost burned myself on the diff cover. At the next town I bought GL-4 and a drain pan, and found the dreaded golden speckles (from deteriorating yellow metal) in the drained synthetic. Apparently I caught it soon enough, because 20K miles later there are still no apparent ill effects.
Among my non-Pierce cars, I have two Jeepsters, whose owners manuals explicitly state to use hypoid lube only in the diff, and not in the trans and overdrive–which are also Borg-Warner.
Use 600W in non-hypoid diffs such as series 80/81 (one easy way to tell is if the pinion enters the center of the pumpkin rather than near the bottom), and in non-synchro (i.e., crash-box) transmissions. If you buy 600W (not for this car!), you can get it from a Model A Ford parts source but be sure to get the dark, smelly, super-viscous stuff rather than the honey-colored, less-viscous gear oil which I suspect is re-packaged SAE 160.
In my experience, true 600W (AKA steam cylinder oil) gets thicker with time and almost tar-like after 30 years or so. I use Texaco Thuban SAE 250 which is available from big rig repair shops in 5-gallon pails.
Hope this helps!
Afterthoughts:
1. I can get the NAPA part number off my 5-gallon pail of GL-1 90 weight if you need it.
2. The jeepster manuals specify “straight mineral oil” (i.e., what we now call GL-1) for their Borg-Warner transmission and overdrive units.
Has anyone ever put together a table of the various years/series of PAs and what is thought to be the recommended modern oil/lubricants for them?
Seems to me this would be pretty darn handy to have in FAQ form.
George is right on.
ALL Borg-Warner overdrives for ANY vehicle and ANY year should use only a Non-EP Mineral Oil Lubricant. NAPA GL-1 90w is the easiest to find.
Steve,
I suggest that you refer to PASB 2011-1 for helpful hints on lubricating your Ross Steering gear. The key point is, that if you do not know for certain that your steering box has not been lubed with grease via the Alemite zerk, you should open it before adding oil. Few folks out there know about oiling via the zerk and use a grease gun.
Thank you all for the help. I bought GL-1 at Napa. It was on the shelf. The GL-4 comes in 85w90 and 140w. Which is correct? Thanks.
Steve
Steve,
For permanent lube in SoCal, I’d use 140 weight. But in your case, I’d be inclined to use 90 initially to help flush out the diff. Then put 500-1,000 miles on it and drain the diff (pull the bottom two or three cover bolts) while the diff is HOT and let it drain overnight. And you may wish to remove the cover initially and wipe out the cavity with lint-free cloths and a little solvent.
George
George,
Thank you for the advice and information.
Steve
Craig has a great idea to develop a repository for this important information.
I would be happy to develop a spreadsheet by year/model/etc. if you brainiacs with the technical knowledge to compile the data would help. To keep from clogging this message board, it might be easier to contact me by email at [email protected]. Any and all suggestions on how to structure this data is welcome.
Bobb
If we do create a table/spreadsheet with oil/lube information maybe we could also have a field to enter any pertinent service bulletin numbers that would pertain to whatever part the oil/lubricant is for.
This would not only give us the proper lubrication type but also how-to information as well.
I realize this is no small undertaking but it would be invaluable to all PA owners.
It would be nice to properly type my own name…
Bill Lyons sent me a cut sheet from Union Oil that had a really nice layout of all the lube points, types of lube, etc. for the ’37-38 cars. I am wondering if we could get the same or similar information for as many years as possible. The owners manual on my ’29 has a lot of info, this sheet Bill has is way more succinct. The other issue, and other marques are in a similar boat, is how to translate what was specified at the time into what we have available today.
George Teebay’s story on the differential lube is truly scary. I hope to get my engine back from the machine shop soon, and have some reservation as to which oil to use. I will probably use the oil Joe Gibbs has developed with zinc and other additives especially on start-up, then use a zinc rich oil going forward.
Hopefully the members (and the AACA) has enough data to help compile at least a first cut at a lube chart for all cars (and bikes too of we can), then we can refine/improve on it.
Bob
Most large NAPA stores, if they don’t have GL1 and GL4 in-stock can order and have them the next day.
Our 1601 was in storage for 58 years, and since 2011, we’ve flushed-out the transmission, O/D and rear-end a half dozen times.
Bob Sands told me not to be in a hurry to run detergent oil in our 1601, which hadn’t been driven since 1952. Since 2011, the pan has been dropped twice, the water jacket was replaced in 2011 and it has been removed once since, both times any oil gunk was flushed-out. Almost 3,000 miles later, and with oil changes every 500 miles, we’re still using NAPA non-detergent 30W with an API service code of SB, so it has plenty of ZDDP in it. Next year, and after 9 or 10 oil changes since 2011, we may switch to either the Indiana Region CCCA 15W40 high ZDDP oil made by DA Lubricants. This is the same oil we’ve used in our Packard and Oldsmobile since the yearly reductions in zinc started about 7 or 8 years ago. Brad-Penn also makes a high ZDDP 30W which we may also consider.
Finally, in our old cars, we only use Valvoline non-abrasive grease, the tube says, “GM-Chrysler-European-Japanese vehicles, multi-purpose grease for disk brake wheel bearings steering linkage, chassis, suspension, U-joints.” Was advised some time ago to use only non-abrasive grease and most auto parts stores stock this Valvoline product. I agree this proposed expanded lubrication chart is a great idea. Here’s the old Gal “getting lubed.”
Stu…..car looks great! Seems like you just got the car yesterday. I found the lost photos and emails on my old computer last week. It sure is a nice automobile. Ed.
Ed, thank you again for passing along the lead to us. After the few minor sorting-out issues were resolved during & after the ’12 Kalamazoo meet, it’s been a fun, trouble-free tour car.
The local NAPA store didn’t have GL-4 in stock but would order it for $44/Gal plus tax if I would come by and prepay and then come by again to pick up when it came in. I bought the exact same gear oil on Amazon for $28.81 delivered to my door with free shipping. I also bought Fischer Classic Car Oil 20W-50 with 1200-1400 PPM zinc for the crank case. I hope that this oil will work properly in the Pierce. I have been running it other cars and it seems to work well.
Also, thank you to all of you that have contributed to this thread. It has been most helpful.
Steve
Steve
I would recommend not using anything with detergent in. I have seen modern transmission fluid strip the clutch linings off overnight using detergent fluid vs non detergent. In auto transmissions
Steve, from recollection, your 1702 was in long-term storage and hasn’t been run in a number of years. Before starting, you’ll want to drop the pan to clean-out any accumulated sludge. Bob Sands advised us to run non-detergent oil until our oil changes started to run clean. You may want to consider doing the same, especially if non-detergent was the only oil available when your car was last run. Detergent oil could break loose any accumulated crud inside your engine and damage your valve lifters. We’re inclined to use Brad-Penn high-ZDDP 30W (avoiding multi-viscosity) when we eventually make the switch to detergent oil.
Also, you’ll see your trans & O/D has two drain plugs, the fill hole for the trans is on the driver’s side and the O/D is on the pass side. The trans & O/D will take about 5 quarts to fill. We use a suction gun to fill the trans, O/D and rear-end. They’re $20 at auto parts stores and look like a small T handle bicycle tire pump.
Hope this helps, Stu Blair