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Were all but custom (as LeBaron et al) bodies made by Pierce-Arrow in Buffalo, or did they buy in bodies from suppliers?
The question occurred to me while reading a book about the Franklin Automobile Co. who purchased some bodies from a supplier in Buffalo, among others.
My understanding is that all P-A convertible sedan bodies were made by LeBaron, to Pierce specifications, and delivered to the factory “in the white” (in primer) to be finished by Pierce.
The production model convertible sedans are thus bodies built by Lebaron, but not Lebaron custom bodied, if that makes sense.
I do not know if any other production bodies were made outside the PAMCC factory.
Randy,
Years ago, a Gentleman named Jim Frietas, an Excellent friend of my Uncle Joe (from whose estate I purchased my Series 80), told me that his Grandfather, Emannuel J. Frietas was a VP at The American Body Company in Buffalo.
Jim told me that they made bodies for Pierce-Arrow and for a number of other marques.
Below, I add the link about The American Body Company.
Cheers,
Peter
Gents,
Also note that Brunn & Company, of Buffalo, made custom bodies for Pierce-Arrow cars.
I believe that Bob Sands owns an exquisite Brunn-bodied Piece-Arrow car.
Judkins, LeBaron, Wilson, Waterhouse and other coach builders also bodied P-A cars.
The running frame was shipped from the PAMCC to the coach builder for creation of the body and interior.
Basically, wealthy individuals who could HAVE (versus OWN) Pierce-Arrow motorcars often wanted THEIR Pierce-Arrow to be different / better / more exclusive than the other wealthy individuals who MIGHT be willing to settle for a car with a Body-by-Pierce-Arrow (American Body Company).
The world changes, but not people.
Note that in “Old Boston,” it was said that well-to-do women did not OWN hats, they HAD hats.
As indicated, people do not change.
Peter
Randy –
You have asked a big issue question by mentioning custom bodies in the same sentence as production models, as Pierce-Arrow did with some Series 80 models. It was not unusual for luxury manufacturers then to imply making bodies when they were really made outside the factory; Rolls-Royce of America was among those doing this, too. There were also series-customs, small runs of 10-25-50 or so of bodies, which could be identified with the name of the coachbuilder making them, such as Judkins Series 80 coupe, or not, such as the Phillips 1928 Series 81 convertible.
I suggest acquiring some of the Arrow magazines edited by Bernie Weis. There are nearly 40 years of them – together, they form Pierce-Arrow’s encyclopedia. So, they are invaluable. The Society may still have some issues for sale; some may be available from the Society’s collection at the AACA Library in Hershey, or in Gene Becker’s separate donation there. The AACA Library can make both scans and hard copes. I’ve seen some available from literature dealers, too. Bernie reproduced many original catalogs, data books and newspaper stories, so his Arrows are mostly a collection of primary sources – there is no question of authenticity of original information reproduced.
The discussion of who besides Pierce-Arrow made Pierce-Arrow bodies is not emphasized – it is not how Pierce-Arrow described its own cars – but those Arrows both illustrate and describe what was being done. It can tell what happened after Studebaker began making the first closed bodies for Pierce. The surprises apogee when looking at the 1934 car component list made by the bankruptcy trustee – Murray’s 836A body parts are rejected. Could that not only reveal who was building Pierce bodies but also who was designing them, too?
I hope this helps
Brooks
All Back issues of the ARROW are available by going to the ” Back Issues” section of the website. In print copies will be sent when available, out of print issues identified by an symbol * will be sent as copies.
This is a tremendous resource that unfortunately is little used by our membership. We have many boxes of issues available back into the 1970’s.
All SERVICE BULLETINS are also available as copies from using the same website section.
The extensive Pierce-Arrow Society Library is available through the AACA library where it has been housed for several years. Their staff will research subjects for a small fee or copies of specific items can be requested.
Dave Stevens
Hi Randy. This question strikes close to home for me. When I found out that my 1925 Series 80 7 Passenger Touring has an all-steel skinned body, I thought or feared that the body had been reproduced, or reconstructed. But inside the body skins, there were notations from inspectors written in white chalk.
I then called several PAS owners of 7 passenger Series 80 Touring cars.. All have an all-steel body skins, over the usual white ash wood framework.
My 4 passenger Series 80 Touring has the ‘normal’ aluminum skinned doors and rear section of the body, the fenders, hood, cowl and splash aprons are all steel. All of the Series 80 sedans, EDL’s, roadsters, 4-passenger coupes, etc all have the ‘normal’ aluminum skinned bodies.
It has been suggested that the steel-seined 7-passenger touring car bodies were built for Pierce by Rubay, a body maker in Cleveland [ I think that is right].
Greg Long
Randy,
Being that Brooks chimed in in this matter, I suggest that you give his three automobile books a read.
They are excellent sources of information on the cars in which we have interest.
There are also many others who have written on the topic, Marc Ralston being another excellent source in his book, Pierce-Arrow.
There is much to be learned about the time when luxury motorcars were Crafted and not Manufactured.
Each Pierce-Arrow was hand-built and in some ways, each is unique, though they share parts.
When you are in Hershey, see if you can find Steve Rossi and get him to bend your ear for a bit.
Steve is brilliant on these topics.
Happy Pierce-Arrow-ing,
Peter
http://www.amazon.com/Pierce-Arrow-Marc-Ralston/dp/0498024512
This is an interesting subject, regarding Pierce-Arrow body builders, used on “new” chassis. I have a follow up question. Who were some of the premier custom body shops that would bring in a Pierce-Arrow car, as purchased, then customize-modify to reflect the owners desires? I am sure that several reputable shops existed in California as well as other affluent areas of the US (where folks with money would reside).
Alan
There are MANY Pierce cars with custom tags on them THAT ARE NOT CUSTOM cars. I recommend you hire an expert to properly identify ANY open, custom, or twelve. There are LOTS OF MODIFIED, MISIDENTIFIED, and just plain altered cars for profit done since the sixties. I will claim to know and have studied the subject in detail. I have some factory LeBaron paperwork and info no one else has, or has seen, and I will pass it on when I can no longer protect it properly. Be careful when buying any car Pierce or otherwise.
It is fascinating to learn there were steel-skinned Series 80 seven-passenger touring cars. But Leon Rubay would not have done them; his business collapsed in 1923 and the factory was quickly sold to Baker-Raulang. There was some discussion last year(?) about outside bodybuilders making Series 80 bodies, that was in the Arrow or the Technical Bulletin; I seem to remember Wilson was the conclusion. Wilson was one of the components forming the Murray Corporation in 1923-1924. Lincoln was a Murray customer, so that would have given the new company immediate luxury market cachet. Going over one of the 1924 or 1925 Lincoln factory-bodied touring cars could prove very interesting.
To also help answer the question added about coachbuilders/customizers of Pierce-Arrows located in California: Both San Francisco and Los Angeles had coachbuilders/bodybuilders/customizers. You can read about and see their work in the Sunday automobile sections of the newspapers: late Teens and early-mid Twenties were the apogee of this. Don Lee and Walter Murphy are best known; others, like Los Angeles’ Bentel Shops and San Francisco’s Larkins, have been nearly forgotten.
Brooks
Gents,
If you go to the Coach Built website, you can click on coach builders from any state in the US.
Doing so will produce a list of all Coach Builders of the time (cars, trucks, Limos, etc.).
Don Lee was a California Coach Builder who produced “Cars for the Stars” and did many Pierce-Arrow cars.
Here is a quote from the Don Lee write-up: “At the height of his career (1919), the great comedian Roscoe Conkling “Fatty” Arbuckle was the highest-paid star in Hollywood. He mainÂtained a small fleet of expensive cars that included a Stevens- Duryea, an Alco, a Rolls-Royce, a White, a MacFarlan, a Renault, a Cadillac and his favorite – a 1919 Pierce-Arrow “66” touring.”
Unfortunately, the list of Coach Builders in each state is LONG, so it takes some knowledge and time to sort through the list.
Again, have fun with the history research.
Peter
The question was raised in my mind while reading the excellent history of the Franklin Automobile Co. published by SAE.
It mentions Franklin bodies being supplied by a firm in Buffalo; the logical thought is that perhaps this local firm supplied some bodies for Pierce-Arrow as well.
I am not referring to the custom and bespoke bodies built by the famous coachbuilding firms. My interest in them goes back to the years when I looked forward to Hugo Pfau’s excellent column in Cars&Parts magazine. Brunn, LeBaron, Brewster, Derham, Weymann, not to mention British and European greats.Oh! What glorious times!!
Randy, Not Pierce-Arrow, but I have a couple of true British coach built cars. They are both Alvis, one is a Mulliner and other is a Carbodies DHC. Yes, those were the days!!!!!
Alan
The Wilson Body Company, from Detroit, made most of the ’26 and ’27 Series 80, two passenger coupes. With and without rumble seat. BUT, these Wilson bodies have or had a tag attached to the front seat base, under the passenger side of the seat cushion. It is a strip of metal, about 3/8″ or 1/2″ wide and about 5″-6″ long. On the tag were ‘Wilson’ and a body identity number.
The Series 80 7 passenger bodies that I’ve looked at do not have any extra body tags. I’ve looked very thoroughly.
What is interesting is that most series 80 cars with the ‘normal’ aluminum skinned body, also have a badge on the lower right corner of the cowl, just behind the hood, just above the splash pan.. This badge reads: ‘Body by Pierce Arrow’ And these cars’ bodies are mentioned in advertising as being built by Pierce Arrow.
BUT, nowhere have I found an ad for the Series 80 7-passenger touring where ‘Body by Pierce Arrow’ is mentioned, and no 7-passenger touring has a ‘Body by Pierce Arrow’ badge on the cowl..
Interesting stuff.
Greg Long
Gents,
Two different “Body by Pierce-Arrow” badges are available for purchase from Nostalgic Reflections (eBay).
A few individuals I know, of course, NOT ME, purchased the badge and installed it on their Series 80 on the cowl as described by Greg.
The only badges that I have seen on cars seem to be one of the two varieties offered by Nostalgic Reflections.
I have no idea how that badge arrived on MY Series 80, but it boasts one. 
Peter
Gents,
Here is the second variety “Body by Pierce-Arrow”” badge that I mentioned above.
Peter”
There are great illustrations of Pierce-Arrow’s series-custom coachbuilt line and bodies labeled “Body by Pierce-Arrow” in ARROW 65-3. The Back Issues’ table of contents identifies them among “1934 assembly line pictures,” but that is a euphemism for the 1934 photo shoot done at the factory by commercial photographer Ewing Galloway. Three cars are shown on the final assembly line; seen together, they imply illustrating a common quality: a low-priced 836A, a standard size sedan and a Brunn series-custom limousine. Other views include a coupe and sedans in a garage area and mechanical details. The Society may still have the actual prints – I would keep in mind they may have a rights issue.
Brooks
Peter,
Leon Rubay designed the 1915 White in 30HP,45HP,and 60HP offerings.
White stated in its ads “the car that makes made-to-order bodies
unnecessary”. I know that GM gets all the mentions for corporate
design attempts, but White should get recognition for having their
total lines custom designed. The results are that my 1915 White 4-45
7 passenger touring is the first dual cowl production car produced
in America. The Lanchester of the UK had an odd looking dual cowl in
1904.They also used in house designed disc brakes and patented the
harmonic balancer at a later date.
Tony Costa