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I have an antique truck and car which have been updated with power steering and power disc brakes. Needless to say, the handling and stopping capability have been greatly improved without changing the outward appearance of either vehicle. Wondering if anyone has done this with any of their Pierce’s at least with respect to power steering. I forgot to mention that I live in Arizona (99 degrees this week) so both of my vehicles also have air conditioning. I realize modifications like these may be regarded as heresy to some members who show their cars but I drive my truck and car on a weekly a basis sometimes even to Costco .
Hi Jim,
I have made similar modifications on many classics over the years. I think anytime you can do something which makes the car more usable more often, then it is quite worth it. Surely there are some with absolutely correct show cars who do not focus entirely on driving experience.
I have thought of a discreet way to add ac to my 836. If I lived where you do, i would not hesitate.
I once met a guy with a stock model A who added overdrive and AC to it for coast to coast trips, he racked up 50k miles touring with it in all types of weather. I would be reluctant to suggest to him that he harmed the value of his car by doing what he did.
In the case of power steering, there are some good options with electric power steering. I have a plan for mounting a 70 amp mini alternator to supply only the power steering on an old dodge truck I have. The steering gear is mounted on the steering column and provides assist with the existing steering box in place. If it failed, you would still have manual steering.
My particular 836 steers quite easily so I have not considered this for the Pierce, but for that old pick up – I will certainly do it.
Good luck !
Yes, I’m one of the old timers who just don’t get this.
One reason I’ve collected and driven antique cars for over 50 years is to experience what the cars were then, how they acted, how they drove, all their little idiosyncrasies. That’s what makes them special, and each car is a little different.
That character is lost when the car is “improved” with modifications. A properly set up, original, car, can be a pleasure to drive, but it takes some effort to make sure all parts aren’t worn out and everything is adjusted correctly. I once drove a 1911 Buick, rear wheel brakes, and it had the best braking I’ve ever felt on an early car because it was correctly done.
I know, to each his own, but driving a Pierce Arrow with power steering, disc brakes, and air conditioning, would be like living in a remodeled, modernized, Frank Lloyd Wright house….
David: Amen to that.
Yes, I understand your point David, but sometimes these non standard additions are warranted. If a family members health – like those with MS, heat is absolutely intolerable – keeps them from participating, then the modifications make sense to some of us.
I once helped design an electric start for a classic motorcycle for an older gentleman who had both knees replaced and could no longer kick start his bike. A modern convenience kept him riding for many more years. The same with power steering, if you have ever had a significant shoulder injury, steering a classic can be bothersome enough to either modify it, or give it up.
Many people , as they age, have difficulty seeing at night. Updated headlights can help immensely, and allow a person to drive and tour without fear of darkness.
I deeply appreciate the effort and commitment to keep a car original in every way. I also hope that people who have personal reasons for some non standard features would be encouraged and feel like they belong here as well.
A rational discussion on an emotional subject. How does that happen
this day and age? There are still many unrestored Pierce-Arrows
desperate for a loving restoration. Time is ticking away as the cost of
renewal races for the sky. The cost of storage is going up in this
crowded world and most owners never give a thought to income they would
realize renting out the space their beauty takes up. The Pierce-Arrow
Society is the only hope for the less desirable of the make that are
missing a $150,000 restoration. By providing parts sources, manuals,
knowledge, events, but mostly exposing our cars to the public, we can
carry our hobby into an uncertain future and provide a happy ending to
forlorn sedans in barns. Let’s be happy and kind while we share our
differing ideas keeping in mind that a strong club benefits us all.
All of you have made some good points both pro and con regarding modifications.In my case the truck is a 1947 Power Wagon 5000 pound behemoth that never had good brakes and benefited greatly from adding 4 wheel disc brakes and power steering. My car, a 1961 Jaguar, had disc brakes originally but the stopping power was increased considerably when the brakes were upgraded. With respect to a Pierce Arrow (I’m considering a 1936)I’ll have to wait and see how it drives. My inclination would be only to add power steering and that would depend on getting an electric unit that would require only minor changes to the car’s appearance and could be rather easily removed if one desired a stock vehicle. Such an option may not exist.
A subject guaranteed to generate debate!
Not being afraid to be a bit heretical, I have given a fair amount of thought to AC on my Pierce as I rebuild it. One thing for mods to me is to avoid doing anything that can’t be undone readily. What little I do is based on being able to drive them on the highway. Realistically a future owner likely won’t do more than go around the block occasionally.
Years ago when I was first dating my wife, we went on a Packard tour and ended up stalled in traffic in 90+ degree heat. Not even a fan to stir the air and I watched as sweat dripped off her nose. It is not a goal of my wife to relive past discomforts. Needless to say, I figured we wouldn’t be going on many tours if the situation wasn’t improved. Years ago we survived long family trips cross country without AC, but now it is hard to consider doing it when the modern standard transportation module is at the ready with powerful AC.
I designed and built an evaporative (swamp) cooler with blowers ,water tank and pumps that fit under the dash. The idea being I didn’t have to do major mods for AC that was going to require a condenser that would increase the heat load on the radiator and cause overheating of the engine and cascade to needing a new bigger radiator and fan. I could make 12 volt blower motors work at half speed/half amperage on 6V without requiring adding a 12V alternator.
It was better than nothing, but was too weak. Early this year I spent way too much time building a new evap cooler/heater system for the Packard with 2 more powerful 12v blowers I found at Grainger that can blow directly on our faces. The vents I scavenged out of a ’64 Imperial years ago and the ducts were made locally out of plastic using 3D printing. A melding of generations of technology! Part of the idea was too see if I could make enough improvement to do an evap cooler for the Pierce instead of AC. It is an improvement but of course not nearly as effective as AC. AC remains a challenge: how to get sufficient 12V amperage to run the available AC systems. I don’t contemplate changing to 12V for the car, just adding a second 12V negative ground source and leave the original 6V positive ground system unchanged. How to provide a condenser that doesn’t require bigger non-stock radiator and fan is a big issue. To do that suggests mounting a remote condenser below the original radiator with independent 12V fans to induce flow without blowing warmed up air through the radiator. A lot of hoops to jump through! Not much of a challenge for hot rodders of course, who would drop in a Chevy 350 with 12V alternators, a big radiator and be done with it! Of course I don’t want a Chevy.
At this point it is unlikely I will do it, simply because I am having doubts I will actually ever tour my Pierce that much at this point. At that point I should be retired, and maybe we will have the option to just avoid the heat. Although, next years PAS meet is in Santa Rosa in July. In 2003 the Packard National was in Santa Rosa and we had record heat – 103. My wife accused me of trying to cook her! Jim
I’d add that the mid thirties cars, with Stewart Warner mechanical brakes, and the 36-38 vacuum assist brakes, do not need improvement by upgrade…just get the original system working, and it’s more than sufficient. The S-W system does take a little getting used to, as it depends on momentum, and at very slow speed can be a little interesting.
My 1931 has huge brake drums, tool steel, and I think I measured at one time 16 feet (yes, sixteen feet) of brake lining…so adjustment is the key, and my car will lock brakes if needed, so make what you have work…
I never have my cars judged because I bought them to drive and enjoy the original experience of the old days. There is no car that is more comfortable in heat than our 1936 1601 sedan. Huge cowl vent, gigantic vent windows that can be turned FORWARD to scoop in cooling air at even low speed. Then there is the very effective power brakes, 70 mph cruising speed and the easiest steering except when not moving.
Packard Meet record heat was present ay their 100th in Warren, OH in 1999. I rode in a friend’s 1937 sedan and enthusiasm for the experience overcame 5 days of upper 90’s. Later that summer the PAS meet in New Hampshire was equally hot with a 1933 1247 sedan, but the only day I sweated noticeably was the day on the show field when we weren’t moving.
I do however confess to adding an electric starter to my 1912 Hudson after a magneto failure so that if I ever had a problem when by myself, I could grab any passerby to press a button while I did diagnosis. But it’s more fun to crank start so that’s what I continue to do.
It’s the enjoyment of authentic experience that brought me to the hobby and continues to do so. If that goes away, the cars go to museums and I go to a retirement home.
We were at the 1999 Packard Centennial as well – we were in the “Tent Titanic” that flooded during the banquet. We survived the show field by my brief runs out from under the trees to look at specific cars and riding around in the Packard bus that was the only way to get shade and a breeze. We were at a restaurant and the cashier asked where we were from – when we told her Nevada she commented that we must be use to 99 degree heat. We said, not this heat (with humidity)! Many think our Nevada comments about “dry heat” are a joke. It ain’t! Packard meets always seem to create record setting heat waves.
Jim
A word of caution regarding power steering added to our original steering systems. It is not only possible, but I have seen and diagnosed badly bent steering components on Pierce Arrow cars. If you want to be able to turn the front wheels from lock-to-lock with the car at a standstill, on pavement, then plan on much upgrading of the steering system
Most Pierce Arrow cars steer quite well, if the system is in proper adjustment and in good condition. The 1936, ’37 and ’38 cars are exceptionally nice to drive. As David Coco and Dave Stevens wrote, they are really wonderful road and touring cars.
The main item that makes our Pierce Arrows a bit of ‘work’ to drive is the old-technology BIAS-PLY tires that we almost HAVE to drive on. There are a few Radial tire sizes available but the wheels should be upgraded as well as the tires. I have not spoken with an actual wheel manufacturer or engineer, but radial tires transfer the tire loads and pressures differently to the vehicle’s wheels than a Bias-Ply tire does.
Greg Long
By the way, a friend of mine drove his family from Nevada back to Warren for the Packard Centennial in his ’53. He has bragging rights but his daughter ended up with heat rash. I feel the hobby should be reasonably fun and less a test of stoicism.
Jim
Regarding A/C:
A very clever, and creative PAS owner put an A/C system in his car, it was completely removable with minimal time, and his car still has won repeated awards at PAS judging events. Including a 1st in class.
So, A/C can be done, but i personally do not like the idea of adding any or many new holes in a firewall or back seat/trunk area.
BUT; if I lived in, and toured in very hot climates, then I would figure a way to help keep the interior cooler. It is a many-faceted problem as mentioned by Jim Chase: An A/C system is a heat-transfer system. The heat is transferred from the interior to the exterior, and that heat must be removed or shed from the vehicle.. Adding an A/C condenser will, as Jim mentioned add additional heat load to our cooling systems.
Also, the electrical system would have to have major capacity upgrades, and then there is the ducting of the cooled air. it is a daunting task to do the job in a tasteful, unobtrusive manner.
Greg Long
I’m surprised that nobody has discussed the coolers filled with
ice that were suspended from door windows. These were popular and
I believe appeared in the forties. They didn’t put out cool air
when stationary, but with all the engineers in our Society (pro
and amateur) an appropriately placed fan would chill things.
I have thought about a self-contained, engine-powered cooling unit shaped as a trunk, rear-mounted, with insulated flexible ducting underneath the Car. Hummmnnnn….
As for newer Cars, the aftermarket accessory air conditioning unit came from the Dallas-Ft. Worth area post WWII and was a popular period addition when cars were in service, so why not now?
I think that many people want to carry forward the judging standard of ‘as the car would be on the showroom floor’. A judging standard has to be set if judging is to take place.
Adding period aftermarket accessories is fine for most of us.
But, adding an accessory from 20 years later is not ‘period’.
Not all of us desire to have a car meeting judging standards, so we modify our cars to make them what we prefer. I’m ‘guilty’ of this very thought process: two of my cars have aftermarket overdrives installed, simply to make the cars able to be able to keep up with modern traffic, or at least be less of a rolling-roadblock. The overdrive units can be removed without a trace if desired.
Similar modifications might be much brighter headlight bulbs, and Uvira-coated reflectors. These add to safety and do not show or detract from the appearance of the car.
I guess a person has to decide a limit or threshold point at which a car is no longer a Pierce Arrow, but a mixture of modern and old and is not really an antique car anymore, but a custom creation.
For me, the limit or threshold would be the engine and transmission, front and rear axle. These items should be contemporary with the car.
Accessories to make the car safer, and more comfortable are usually ‘ok’ with me, just as long as they do not obviously show, or detract from the appearance of the car, and can be removed without a trace and the car returned to original configuration.
Just my opinions.
Greg Long
I’m really impressed with all of the thoughtful replies to a controversial subject. Since I’m yet to own and drive a 36′ Pierce Arrow and see how it handles ( no doubt far superior to my old truck which drives like a log wagon) I can’t make an informed decision. Changes to engine and axles would be off limits and my focus would be on safety. I’ll take everyone’s word that mechanical brakes properly adjusted with vacuum assist work well but I believe hydraulic brakes would have been arriving shortly had Pierce survived( even Henry Ford had to cave to hydraulic brakes in 1939). My 1937 Packard Super 8 was a dream to drive (once it got moving) with independent front suspension and juice brakes. Also, any changes in physical appearance (exterior and interior) would not be on my list . Another criterion for me is that any modification should be able to be added or removed relatively easily. And, equally important , it shouldn’t cost a fortune .
Hi Jim, the Pierce Arrow cars generally had more square inches of brake shoe/drum than any other cars produced. The Pierce cars STOPPED.
Juice brakes had a major safety problem: a single failure resulted int a total failure of the foot brakes. With a mechanically actuated brake system, a single failure usually left 3 / 4 of the brake system working.
Not until 1967 did dual split brake systems be mandated, and made cars much safer.
Greg
On the subject of brakes, our ’29 does not have any sort of power assist and it will stop extremely well for its size and age.
It will almost stop as well as any non-power brake ’50s drum brake car.
Driving in traffic is not nearly as nerve racking as driving our ’26 Rickenbacker.
Even though the ‘Rick’ is a much smaller and lighter car it does not stop as well as the Pierce.
The only place where the Pierce brakes are weak is while in reverse because the sliding 3rd shoe mechanism is working against you.
It can make for an interesting experience when backing down a steep driveway or off the ramps of a trailer.