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Have consulted the OMB and no detail, When the clutch is fully depressed, there is a sound of metal on metal. The previous owner thinks the clutch brake pads are gone or worn through.
How can I replace these pads, or is there possibly another problem?
Hi Bill,
Either crawl under the car, and have someone in the driver’s seat operate the clutch pedal. Or remove the front floor board and look down at the clutch mechanism while you operate the clutch.
On the outer perimeter of the cone, there is a surface that comes in contact with two pads mounted on threaded, adjustable bolts. The pads have brake material on them. From what i can tell, it’s normal woven brake material. it must be glued or bonded in place, since I don’t see any rivets or other way to secure the brake material.
The pads appear to have a recess to capture and retain a disc of brake material..
if you have some old brake shoes around, you could cut a piece of the used brake material, then trim it to fit in the recess in the pad. The glue it in place.
Greg Long
Peter: what do we do when we step on the brakes or push the clutch all the way in until the brake material is rubbing on the cone surface? Do we hold our breath when we come to stop at a stoplight, check the wind direction and and pass out respirators to people downwind in adjacent cars with windows down?
People have been exposed to brake and clutch dust since the first automobile and train moved then stopped by using friction brake materials.
It wasn’t until the late 60’s or early 70’s that a connection was made between a form of lung cancer and brake-technitions/specialists in major city-garages and demolition crews who blew up, crushed and powdered old asbestos insulation on steam pipes and breathed the thick dust with impunity.
Look up mesothelioma, it is not easily contracted, if so, I’d be long, long dead. i’ve been doing brake jobs since i was 10 or 12. And there was no effort until the late 60’s or early 70’s to even think about the brake dust inside brake drums as anything but something that makes people sneeze and turn their face and clothes black.
Bill: In deference to safety, please chock the wheels of your car, set the hand brake, post guards, and wear a respirator if you plan on making any brake lining dust. Do it outdoors so the dust will not be in your shop to be casually stirred up.
If you wish, you can remove the clutch brake buttons and measure and photograph them and send the photos and measurements to me in an email and i’ll cut some brake material pads to fit, and mail them to you. or you can send the pads to me and i’ll put new lining in them, but send photos first so i can be sure they are the same as the pads on my 19, at least in design.
It is possible that since your ’16 cone clutch used leather as the friction material, that leather was also used in the brake clutch friction buttons.. i’m sure you will be able to tell when you inspect the material. In 1919, Pierce changed to a composite material so the use of neatsfoot oil was no longer used to condition the leather.
Greg Long
Bill,
Regarding clutch brakes:I have been through the clutch brakes on my C-3.My car still had the red fibrous material for the clutch brake pads and it had gotten worn down.I was told by a friend who works on these Pierce Arrows that this was the original material.I removed the pads and sent them to him and he machined new pads out of black friction type material and fit them to the metal bases.When they came back,I reinstalled them then adjusted while the engine was idling being very careful not to let my hands slip into the revolving clutch wheel.You need to deal with these as you do not to gouge up the part on the wheel on which the pads contact.A good machinist should be able to make you new pads and remount them to their bases.Your Series 4 clutch uses a leather face like that on my Series 3.It is held in by wooden pegs.The clutch brakes are essential for good shifting.The Series 31-51 cars used a woven clutch lining that ran in oil rather than neatsfoot oil.I am not certain if the clutch brake design is the same as the earlier cars.The red original material on my clutch
brakes appeared to be a red stiff rubber like material or perhaps fibrous
The idea is to put the wear on the clutch brake material, not the metal on the
clutch. Brake material may be too harsh. My experience with my ’12 is in line
with Mr. Scorah’s. It almost has the consistency of linoleum. Be nice to your
drive train and your nerves and keep the clutch brake well adjusted. Don’t
reline them with a hard surface material, not too soft either.
It interests me that the Series 31-51 used a woven clutch lining. I have two
brass Marmons that have a woven cone clutch lining that has metal woven into
it. I believe the factory installed them, as they are alike. They don’t run
in oil and shift beautifully.
Since we are on clutch brakes
jak: I also have looked at the drawings and do not find anything resembling a clutch brake for the ’29 or later clutches. My ’29 roadster did not have one.
When i start driving my cars in the spring, I have to remind myself that the ’29 and later cars must be shifted using FULL clutch, right to the floor to get the needed travel to release the TWO discs in the later cars. ut when driving a Series 80/81, or my ’19 Series 31, only half or 3/4 clutch travel can be used, or else the clutch brake will stop the cone between gears and cause the shifts to be either noisy or impossible.
Greg Long
Is that woven material asbestos?
Peter, I can appreciate the warning. However, woven, or bonded, asbestos poses no threat whatsoever to anyone’s health. It’s only when it’s made into dust, or in the OSHA terminology “becomes friable”, does it pose an inhalation danger.
There may be some slight loose material from wear, but as long as it doesn’t become airborne it’s not a danger. Wipe it down, don’t use an air stream.
Thus, handling asbestos pads or brake shoes is no problem, while sanding or grinding on them to make them fit does pose an issue.
All good info, especially Greg Long! But thanks from all. My car does have a leather cone, recently done. The previous owner suggested that I install leather pads on the clutch brake.
I did pull the floorboards, it was a little dark, but I saw the absolutely weirdest clutch assembly I have ever seen in a car! Looks like the clutch brake pads should be able to reach.
I hope to get on this soon. I would like to be sure if there is a better material for the pads. I am very interested in authentic, but sometimes recent tech may be a good idea. I have a brake shop near me that has made some bonded brake shoes for other cars.
They can do what I ask, but want to get the best lining that will not hurt the car where it contacts with the metal.
I understand about dangers of asbestos, and appreciate warnings. I will be careful if I use that kind of pads.
So, is there a consensus about the best lining? Seems like some kind of Kevlar like the bands in my Model T?
Sorry about slow answering, I forgot to check the box to receive responses. Now done.
BTW “Leather clutch”??? The understanding technology of 1916 reminds me of science fiction book written by John Jacob Astor, “A Journey In Other Worlds”, 1894.
He described the space suits as composed of “Leather, cork, and glass….”
The mentioning of the clutch brake material as being like linoleum is a very apt description.It resembled a rather thick linoleum that was red in color.As I recall it was held to the steel plate with two small screws.It had been there since the late fall of 1914.It was not woven but solid with cushioning properties.It could have been a hard rubber of some sort.The fun part is adjusting with that engine running.
Since the surface that the clutch brake runs on is aluminum, I would use something softer than brake lining material. Bill is correct that the original material is reddish in color and held on with screws from the back side, the material is drilled and tapped.,I would use something like Delrin or some other hard plastic. As far as adjusting them I usually do it with the engine off, I just push the clutch pedal down fully and watch to see if the flywheel hits them. They only need to move about 1/16 of an inch. Adjust as necessary. Then start the car, depress the clutch and see if they are doing their job.
Hi Billy, you don’t think that delrin would get hot and melt or get sticky? I have a lot of delrin rod. Do you know the diameter of the pad on a ’16 clutch brake friction pad?
I can measure my ’19’s pad, but I don’t have access to a ’16.
Greg Long
Bill Marsh: If you can measure the diameter of your clutch brake friction pads. i’l see if I have delrin rod in that size. if not, and it’s smaller than some pieces i have, i could turn it down to your diameter..
I need to look at my 1919 pad material again. I remember looking at them when i first got the car, and thought that they were a woven brake material.. but, considering how dirty the car was, the ‘fibers’ i saw around the edges of the friction material might have been sticks, weeds or ?? that i thought was part of the woven material..
I can mail you some delrin discs for you to use to replace your friction material.
i do know for sure that the clutch brake material used on a Series 80,81 is a donut like disc, much like a slice of canned pineapple, made from woven brake material.
Greg Long
Bill,
When storing your car, be sure to have the clutch depressed so that the
leather lining is not making contact with the flywheel. The brass era
Pierces have a detent in the shift mechanism that would free the leather
from contact when stored in neutral. Even my lowly 1910 Mitchell disengages
the clutch for storage when the emergency brake lever is engaged. Other
cone clutch cars require a stick to be fashioned between a depressed clutch
pedal and a strong surface directly behind it(usually beneath the seat).
Hi Greg, I checked on a disk I have at the shop that we had changed out and it was a little harder than I thought, but it was very smooth. The Delrin might be a little to soft to use but I wouldn’t be afraid to try it. A better choice might be some sort of phenolic. I don’t have the measurements for the 16 but I think they are larger than on the 1919-20 cars.
Thanks Billy,
Wishing you and Heidi a very Merry Christmas, and a Safe and Prosperous New Year. !!
Greg Long
I have some clutch disks from a 1912. These are about 2 1/4″ in diameter and about 5/16 thick, With three equidistant holes. However, he says that a Series 4 has smaller disks possibly about one inch.
Suggests I pull the disks in my car, rotate so that some of the still good surfaces will properly contact the clutch until I can get new ones.
Also, suggest I contact Alan Smith with Restoration Supply. He drives a Series 4. And maybe he can get some for me. I also appreciate the several people here for helping me get this done. I will pull my disks and see what I have.
If I could get the material. I can probably drill the holes using my old one(s).
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Will see about pulling my clutch disks and see what I can do. Here is the one from a 1912 Pierce about 2 1/4 diameter
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Bill,
Your photo looks like the material is like the red fiber block that Restoration Supply sells on page 12 of their catalogue. Alan & Beth Schmidt are great people and can send you some. Give them a call 1-800-306-7008.