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Fellows, I started the 1927 Series 80 and something happened: Iit started fine and idled smoothly for about 2 seconds then developed s shaking miss with tapping sound. It kept rrunningbbut obviously somethingbwas going on: suspected a stuck valve. I stopped the engine and removed the tappet covers: see photo. Cylinder 4’s intake valve spring keeper is out of place. Please advise.
Adding promised photo…
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Also: I need a valve spring compressor for flathead engines; please recommend one which will work well on the Series 80 engine. Thanks.
Randy,
Did you adjust the valves?
If so, after you discovered that you were missing a clip, did you take a thin wire, like a cheap wire coat-hanger wire and search under and around the valve lifter brackets to see if the retaining clip is lurking there?
I will send you a photo of the valve compressor (maybe two) that worked for me (I tried a number without much success).
Peter
Hi, Peter, I have not done any work prior to this event. I was planning a long-needed adjustment as part of this weekend’s activities, but I was derailed by this development.
I will search the tappet chest for parts as you suggest: it is quite clean so if something is there I should find it. I also plan to study my parts list to become more familiar with the design of the spring keeper.
Update: found no loose parts in the tappet chest after looking, feeling with a finger, and using a magnet.
Not a speck of metal anywhere.
I believe you have a broken valve spring. Check the upper part of the valve spring with a mirror, see if it is broken and collapsed.
The ‘C’ type valve keeper sits quite deep in the recess in the spring retainer. As you can see, it requires 1/4″-5/16″ of additional spring compression to make enough clearance to allow the ‘C’ keeper to slide out of the slot in the end of the valve stem.
The only way that i can think of this happening in a running engine is for the spring to be broken or ‘collapsed’, Meaning so old and weak that it has no spring remaining in the coils.
I’d compare the amount of pressure needed to lift up some of the other valves to the pressure needed with this pictured valve..
Let us know what you find.
Greg Long
Thanks; will proceed with the investigation along this path.
By the way: where does one find a new valve spring for a Series 80?
Randy, you make new springs………figure about 10 each when you have 100 made.
Randy,
A NEW ONE or a REPLACEMENT?
I believe that if you want a NEW spring, you need twelve (12).
If you want a REPLACEMENT, you may need one (1) spring.
I’ll look, and Greg probably has 5,000,000 of them.
Peter
A few years ago I was able to buy NORS S80 valve springs from Then & Now Automotive in MA–the people who also rebuild fuel pumps. I bought two seta of 12 and used them all.
(After checking my records) Or try member George Sterie in Grapevine, TX, who had some made up 10-12 years ago.
Randy,
I have the same vague recollection as George about THEN & NOW.
I did replace all of the valve springs in my Series 80, 9-years ago.
Peter
Randy: Did you find out if the spring is broken or collapsed ?
I do have ‘a few’ extra good-used S80 valve springs.
Greg Long
Not yet; been working out of town but home tonight. Will inspect as soon as possible.
Meanwhile look at this exhaust valve from a Waukesha 7044 Series 4; think it was about to drop an exhaust valve head in the cylinder?
UPDATE: finally got dome time in the Car Barn this afternoon. First, I used a mirror and light to look at the upper end of the spring, and it seems to be intact. I then used a pry bar to feel the spring force and it seemed like the other springs. I put the bar against the keeper where it appeared to be out of place and with a little force it popped back into place. I temoved the appropriate spark plug then used a light and mirror to look at as much of the intake valve as possible, and it seemed normal.
I removed all the spark plugs to eliminate compression and cranked the engine around as fast as I could. It seemed I could hear a faint bump every other revolution. Noted for future reference.
I replaced the plug in cylinder 4 then opened the primer cup and it seemed to be developing the expected compression. I replaced all the plugs and looked at some of the tappet clearances. Several including #4 intake have clearance of 0.010 inch. We already knew adjustment was needed.
For my next step I plan to start it to see if the tapping and miss are still there.
What is the possibility something has happened to the cam follower roller?
In searching for information, I reread the excellent information Greg Long provided in response to a query named “Valve Train” in February, 2016, regarding the valve lifter brackets and the care to be taken during valve adjustment. Also, in Jan 2018 Karl Krouch provides info about the lifter brackets which are available as reproductions in case of need.
Randy, how long had the engine sat when you started it a week or so ago? Had it been months ?
Since you still have an odd noise, I will suggest this: lubricate the valve guides before you start the engine again.
I have done this by removing the spark plugs, look through the spark plug hole for each cylinder, when a valve is open, of it’s seat, use a penetrant/lubricant like PBS Blaster, or similar light oil. I like ATF, but I don’t know if you have an oil can with a thin plastic hose on it like I use.
Using the red 4-5″ spray nozzle, direct your lubricant under the head of the valve, to spray it on the valve stem. This way you KNOW there is lubrication on the valve and guide.
With a flat head engine, that has good rings, tight valve guide clearances. and running our modern alcohol-tainted fuel, there is VERY LITTLE lubrication for the valve guides. Especially since these engines do not need to be run at very high rpm to get the needed torque to move the car quite well. So the valve stems and guide run dry and might have stuck over the winter..
I’ve had this happen to more than one fresh rebuilt engine. I need to start adding 2-stroke engine oil to my fuel in my cars.
Greg
Hi, Greg, it’s been about a month that I started the engine and got it up to temperature, prior to this event. I understand what you are recommending and I will try it; I have just the device to accomplish this. I will report the results soon. Thanks!