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Hello, Kevin Miller from Ohio. I have a 840 A Club Sedan 8 Cylinder that I purchased from my Uncle who has owned it for the past 42 years. I was 17 when we restored it. I thought I would ask about the oils and Fluids that I should be using! Rear axle gear oil? Is 85-140 a good choice? The bearing in the fan? Same gear oil ok, or? I read where it say to use 600W. i have a pretty good idea from reading the manual where to be using 30w oil to other areas on the car! How often should I be doing this? It spends a lot of its time since I purchased it sadley in the garage on jacks! In a great garage. My uncle is 84 and hes not as sharp as he was! Thank you.
Kevin, I have a 1934 840A Club Brougham and I use 90w in the transmission and the rear end. Also have a oil can of it that I put in the fan bearing. Rest of the car is 30W. Hope you can get it on the road and bring it on a tour or to a meet.
Thank you Richard for your information. The Pierce arrow is running and has had the engine rebuilt! I just have been a bit confused as to what fluids I need to keep up on as to how often and what grade of fluids. The rear end has had a small leak from sitting and was not sure what would be ok to add to it and I was reading up about the fan bearing to keep close attension on keeping it lubricated. Thank you again. This Pierce Arrow has had many miles of trips by my aunt and uncle over the years. They had been at Gilmore and also to Buffalo some years back as many other gatherings. He enjoyed driving to his gathering in his Pierce Arrow rather then pulling it with his truck.
I know all of this has been discussed at various times in many threads over the years but it would be extremely helpful to members, both new and old, if a comprehensive list was put together and posted in a format similar to the parts and services directory.
That would be extremely helpful! thank you Craig Castillo.
In the interim, for newer Pierce-Arrows, it has been recommended to use GL-1 rated gear oil in the transmission and GL-4 gear oil in the differential; both are available at NAPA stores.
I agree the addition of a “lubricants list”” to the Parts & Service page would be of benefit to most all PAS members.”
i believe we need some sort of a ‘wikipedia’ style list or thread covering this and a few other subjects.
The reason is that there are older products that might still show up that work well. Some have been renamed or no longer in production.
The specific details for each year of car has a huge impact on what can be used in the various items needing lubrication.
Example: yellow metals in a gearbox or differential mean that a hypoid type gear lube must NOT be used, or the sulphur in the hypoid-formula will create acids that eat up brass, bronze etc..
The hypoid differentials without yellow metal should use a hypoid oil to reduce friction and wear.
A good discussion could, maybe, be saved in some form so that it can be resurrected and reposted as needed.
But, a ‘sticky note’ feature is currently not available, and we do not have website moderators who might save certain threads for reposting.. Just some things for future discussion.
Greg Long.
Let me somewhat disagree with Greg’s post above. Pierce-Arrow automobile rear axles 1929 forward (except those 1933s still equipped with worm drive) ARE hypoid and require Extreme Pressure (EP) gear oil. EP gear oils on today’s market have some sulfur which can be harmful to yellow metals. The most benign EP on the market today is GL-4. GL-5 is primarily for limited-slip and has more sulfur, so avoid it.
I use Gl-1 (straight mineral oil) in *synchromesh* (1932 forward) transmissions, free wheeling units, and overdrives.
Non-synchro gearboxes and differentials through 1928 originally used what is called 600W or steam cylinder oil, which comes out to SAE 180-210. EP additives are NOT required for these applications. Dave White and I have been trying to find modern gear oils without sulfur which exceed the capabilities and limitations of 600-W, which thickens over time and turns almost tar-like. Complicating this search is that viscosity of industrial gear oils is now rated in ISO numbers rather than SAE, with considerably different numbers. As yet, we haven’t found sulfur-free oil readily available other than in 55-gallon drums.
I don’t know of any transmission failures from using GL-4, but straight mineral oil GL-1 is certainly preferred. And of all things, my 1948 Jeepster’s owner’s manual is explicit than the trans and OD get only “straight mineral oil” whereas the differential must have “hypod” (EP) oil.
I had a bad experience with GL-6 synthetic in a 1930s hypoid rear axle despite the advice of a PhD chemist at a gear oil company, so avoid that as well.
Hi George, it doesn’t read like you disagree at all, buy you just wrote the info much more concisely.
Greg Long
Since George threw my name out there, I’ll give a summary of what I have found regarding gear oil for gear boxes containing brass. Based on discussions with some of the oil company engineers, Phillips/76/Conoco Compounded Gear Oil is designed for gear boxes containing brass parts. The Product Data Sheet (link below) specifically lists Antique Autos that require a high viscosity gear oil. It comes in ISO 460, 690 and 1000. This is equivalent to SAE 140, 190 and 250. It is a GL-2 equivalent oil. Exxon Mobil reportedly has a similar product. My local Phillips distributor says the smallest quantity available is 55 gallons. Some distributors sell enough that they will buy 55 gal and sell 5 gallon pails, mine won’t because the demand is too low.
Chevron Meropa is sold by some old car suppliers as safe for brass. I bought some and when I opened the bottle immediately smelled the sulfur. I spoke with a Chevron engineer that said it is not designed for this use and will eventually degrade yellow metals. She said that Chevron does not have a gear oil for this use and recommended the Compounded Gear Oil from Phillips.
It is my plan to eventually put a more detailed write up of this in an article in the PASB.
I don’t know that this answers Kevin’s question. I am not that up on the 30’s cars, but if it has a worm drive rear axle you should be using a Compounded Gear Oil. If it has a hypoid rear axle you should be using an Extreme Pressure Gear Oil like a GL-4.
Dave
The Mobil Equivalent is Mobil Cylinder Oil available in the same viscosities as Phillips. It is available in 5 gallon pails.
Mobil PDS link:
http://www.mobil.com/english-us/industrial/pds/glxxmobil-cylinder-oils
I’m confused. Worm drive rear axles require a sulfur free extreme pressure
oil. Several prominent members are recommending GL-4 which contains sulfur
and they say it hasn’t ruined their rear end yet. David White has discovered
an extreme pressure oil in the correct viscosity that can be bought in 5
gallon cans from Phillips and Mobil and it won’t ruin your axle. What’s the
difference between mineral oil and compounded gear oil? What is the
difference between GL-1 and GL-2?
I like the discussion, but I concur with Anthony regarding his confusion and his excellent synopsis. I would like to know the bottom line for the specific oil I should use in the rear differential for my ’29 roadster? (a website for the specific oil to buy would be great!)
Robert
Tony- Worm drives actually are a high pressure application not an extreme pressure application such as a Hypoid rear end. EP Gear oil (GL-4) uses a sulfur/phosphorus compound as an additive. GL-4 is used for Hypoid differentials. The Sulfur additive in an EP oil eventually may corrode yellow metals.
Compounded Gear Oil, also called Cylinder Oil, (GL-2) instead uses tallow as an additive and is safe for yellow metals. It is used in worm drive gear boxes because of the “wiping” action of the gears and the brass bull gear.
Both types of oils usually use a mineral oil base although there are synthetics out there. The additive package is where the problem occurs.
The link below goes to an article that gives a good explanation of the difference.
As far as those that use EP GL-4 in gear boxes that have brass, I don’t argue that it might be OK. Unknowingly, I have used 90w EP oil in the transmission (that has brass synchro rings) of my Jeep for almost 50 years and so far have not had a problem. I do know the oil companies do not recommend EP oil with Sulfur additive in gear boxes with brass parts.
Some sulfur additives are much less harmful to brass than others. The “copper corrosion” test is used to determine how harmful the oil will be to yellow metals. 1A is non corrosive to 4C which is very corrosive. The Phillips Compounded Oil is rated 1A.
Robert – As far as what to use in your car, I do not know which type of differential a 1929 has. I use SAE 90 EP oil in my vehicles with a hypoid differential and ISO 1000 Compounded Gear Oil in the differential on my 1928 Pierce.
GL categories:
API Category GL-1 designates the type of service characteristic of manual transmissions operating under such mild conditions of low unit pressures and minimum sliding velocities, that untreated oil may be used satisfactorily. Oxidation and rust inhibitors, defoamers and pour depressants may be used to improve the characteristics of lubricants intended for this service. Friction modifiers and extreme pressure additives shall not be used.
API Category GL-2 designates the type of service characteristic of automotive type worm-gear axles operating under such conditions of load, temperature and sliding velocities, that lubricants satisfactory for API GL-1 service will not suffice.
API Category GL-3 designates the type of service characteristic of manual transmissions and spiral-bevel axles operating under mild to moderate to severe conditions of speed and load. These service conditions require a lubricant having load-carrying capacities greater than those that will satisfy APL GL-1 service, but below the requirements of lubricants satisfying the API GL-4 service. with wide operation ranges and temperature differences in the vicinity of viscosity.
API Category GL-4 designates the type of service characteristic of spiral-bevel and hypoid gears in automotive axles operated under moderate speeds and loads. These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and transaxle applications.
API Category GL-5 designates the type of service characteristic of gears, particularly hypoids in automotive axles under high-speed and/or low-speed, high-torque conditions.
API Category GL-6 (inactive[3]) designates the type of service characteristic of gears designed with a very high pinion offset. Such designs typically require (gear) score protection in excess of that provided by API GL-5 gear oils. The original API GL-6 test equipment is obsolete.
Dave
http://www.industrialoutpost.com/what-are-compounded-gear-oils/
A quick question
Jak.
As part of this discussion, can the subject of anti-freeze be added – also to the suggested update to the “lubricants and other” addition to the parts and service page.
We now have “purified water” (not distilled water) with Pencool 3000 added in our ’36, however, I’ve read certain types of modern anti-freeze can be detrimental. Would someone elaborate on this?
Stu,
Another of those old car topics that has generated much discussion.
What I have read on the topic is to stay away from the “Extended” or “Long” Life coolants that use Organic Additive Technology (OAT). The older style coolant that uses Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) is what should be used in older cars. There are several brands (Peak, Peak HD Sierra, Zerex Original)that still use the older technology. Don’t depend on color, although generally the older style is green.
Apparently, the OAT type eats up gasket sealer as well as some solders.
I use water with NAPA Corrosion Inhibitor / Water Pump Lube, since freezing is not much of an issue out here.
The link is to an AACA forum that give some more information.
Dave
http://www.ncregionaaca.com/firstcapital/index.php/old-cars-and-antifreeze
Robert, your 1929 has a “hypoid” differential and thus you should use GL-4. Amateur recognition factors (other than the 1933 worm drive): On a “hypoid” differential, the pinion enters at the bottom of the “pumpkin”; on non-hypoid, the pinion enters midway-high on the pumpkin.
Dear George,
Thank you for information. This 1930’s Chevrolet informational video is the best explanation I have have seen for how differentials work including a hypoid differential (differentials for dummies 
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4JhruinbWc) To follow-up, can you recommend a specific GL-4 oil that I should use?
Robert
Robert, thank you for that link. That was indeed a basic intro to differentials. There are a number of other Jam Handy [production company] videos on You-Tube but I hadn’t seen that one.
I’ve bought GL-4 gear oil at NAPA (one day delay for a 5-gallon pail), and I understand O’Reilly’s has their house brand GL-4 on the shelves. Either will do, just be sure it’s GL-4.