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Hi all,
Happy holidays to you!
I know we have some interior guys and plenty that have restored their interiors.
Would you please offer up what I should expect to pay for a full, high quality, leather interior and high quality, canvas top with lining.
I’m getting some numbers that are almost double what I expected. I just want to know if I’m delusional or I’m being sandbagged. 1929 D.C. Phaeton.
Thanks, soooo much. Rick
P.s. The car was finally started again. New/used carb is awesome. No leaks, cracks, bruises or cancers of any type. Must have been a high quality pot metal day!!
Runs smooth and super quite. The carb is going to be removed one last time and dyno tuned so perfect.
q
I’m not known for being correct, but $50,000 might get it done on the left
coast. You might wait on a list for some time before a top notch upholsterer
could accommodate you.
Tony is in the ballpark, I would have guessed 50-75 at an independent uhpolstery shop. Figure twice to three times that for a Pebble Beach work. An Tony is also correct, getting a slot in a good shop could be a year wait, or more. It’s getting terribly difficult to find skilled pre war upholsterers. And you get what you pay for. Springs, padding, leather, and top material done using lower quality materials look like it when installed, uhpolstery is one of those items on a restoration where ther is no place to hide short cuts………good luck. Ed
$50,000 ??
$75,000 ??
For upholstery and a top? Wow !
One of our members — I’ll let him chime in — recently gave me a ballpark figure of about $20,000 to do leather upholstery on a large 1920’s 5-p Touring (not Pierce). This car was upholstered but in vinyl and I was curious what it would cost to put it right.
Could someone give me their opinion on the cost to do a 1933 Pierce Club Sedan? Seats, panels, headliner — whole interior. Done in proper wool broadcloth. One of the cars I am considering.
Scott…..there are many types of leather, stiching, and padding. Springs, top bows, wood repair, it’s not just put in the interior. Carpets, side curtains, tire covers, visors, hassocks, tool bag, trunk, there is a lot of stuff to do. A @920 off brand car is a lot less work than a Pierce, and a touring car is much less work than a sedan. Upholsterers have to deal with windows, surrounds, ash trays, dome lights, switches, radio antennas, ect,ect,ect. It’s not easy and a good job is difficult. A great job is extremely difficult. Add I fewer people doing it, a good economy, and prices start to climb, David Coco use to do it on the side, and has since retired. Getting stitching straight, windlace, binder, ……..you got to be crazy to do it. Door fit and closure can be very difficult if the restoration wasn’t done correctly to allow for door panels, door insert sills, strikers. It is a very complicated business. Also, many people don’t do their research, and end up with a incorrect style interior, in wrong patterns, with wrong hardware. It’s truly becoming a lost art. Also, if your top bows, irons, and clamps arn’t done by the upholsterer, which they almost never are, the top frame is usually crooked, and fits poorly.
It is rather astounding, the costs of restoration. It makes you wonder if restoration professionals are pricing themselves out of existence.
Just as a data point, to comment on mechanical restoration. . .
I once owned a 1914 Franklin. Very complicated engine in spite of all the attributes of a Franklin. I bought the car with a nice cosmetic restoration but the engine was never looked at and it was clear that it needed attention. Since my desire was to drive the car reliably, I opted to have a Franklin expert rebuild the engine and transmission. Total cost: $65,000. The engine rebuild was more than I paid for the whole car !
It is sobering.
— Luke
Scott……reread your first sentence. The cost of restoration is directly related to labor……..ever meet a restoration shop owner who has a Duesenberg or Bugatti? There are fewer and fewer restoration shops today, and they will continue to evolve, get smaller, and more specialized. Today highly skilled labor is more expensive than its ever been, and it will continue to increase. The problem lies in people’s expectations of making money on an old car. The correct view is money spent on car should be looked like money spent at the casino. Your using money to entertain yourself for a certain period of time, and you should have no expectation of having anything left when your done. That’s the reality of today’s car collector market……it’s disposable income that is being disposed of, with no payout on thr back end. Car values are actually falling and failing to keep up with inflation. Common car prices are back to the mid 80’s numbers today. It’s bad if you have fifteen cars, and good if you trying to buy one. The only exception is the super high end .001 percent of the market…..they are on fire.
I’ve been doing tops and interiors since I retired from an Engineering career 6 years ago. I did it professionally for a couple of years, apprenticed under a master trimmer.
I don’t claim to do Pebble Beach quality. I have numerous AACA and CCCA winners under my belt.
I’m trying to finish a couple of promised projects, a Pierce that should be done in January and a Packard that’s coming after.
For a big sedan, 15-20 yards of fabric, if done correctly 250-300 hours. By “done correctly” I mean springs taken apart, cleaned, repocketed (that’s 70 hours right there), correct horsehair and cotton and so forth. $2000 for materials and $12,000-15,000 labor.
An open car, $4,000-$5,000 for top all in, which includes some adjustment of irons and bows but if major problems with structure then more.
Open car interior, on a touring, 6 or 7 fifty square foot hoses of leather, anywhere from $5 to $12 a square foot. Let’s say $3,000 to $4,000 for materials. Another $10,000-$12,000 in labor for interior.
These are rough numbers from what I’ve been charging. Sometimes more, sometimes less. This also presumes everything is rechromed, all trim pieces ready, and no major rebuild of components. A real business might want more to cover overhead, and we’re not talking the Pebble Beach restoration guys, that’s a whole different level as Ed mentions.
For example, I know of a shop that just did a 1940 Packard 120 convertible coupe front seat, bill was $4150 all in and done.
Should read “hides”” and not “”hoses”” on leather discussion….”
Thanks so much, David.
I do think that Ed was referring to Pebble Beach quality which might get you into the $50,000+ range. Most of us are not interested in that kind of work but want a correct, good looking job with good workmanship, which is what you and other independents like you can provide.
My understanding from you and from other restoration professionals was you should allow $20,000 for a big sedan or touring. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, but either way, that’s sort of where you should plan.
One of the better shops down south that does Pebble grade work has a shop rate of 225 per hour. Plus materials. Add in complicated interiors as seen in pre war Hispano, Rolls, Packard Customs, your at 100k to say hello. Now, most open cars have rather plain uhpolstery, so it would be on the lower end of the price range. If one uses a 400 hour time figure at say 75 dollars per hour you are at 30,000 in labor. David has done work for me recently, that was first rate, on a very high nineties point car, and it came out fabulous in my opinion. I don’t remember the bill, but it was less than I expected. Is it possible to get a craftsman to work for less than 75 dollars an hour today? Maybe, but his skill level may not be up to what some expect. Im not sure what boat guys charge, but I have seen their work on earlier cars and thought it was decent and “ok†but by the time 1929 rolls around, things are much more detailed. Also, how fast the car gets done will come into cost……..a car expected to be finished in eight to ten weeks will brobably cost much more than a six month time frame. I would recommend you insist on a finish date, as our cars are harder to do than many others, so they often keep getting pushed back while other projects get done. I would inspect the persons work in person, not from photographs, to be sure to understand what you will end up with. If you guy hasn’t done ten pre war cars in the last three or four years I would keep looking, There are lots of fantastic post war people out there……but it’s a big difference in skill sets. Uhpolstery is one of those things that either looks right to your eye, or it doesn’t. With a very educated eye, small flaws stand out. Just as Dave, we have had the discussion. Things I thought looked ok would bother him. Looking foreword to seeing the 1929 D/C on the showfield.ðŸ‘
There are very few trimmers out there who consistently turn out what would be considered perfect, or flawless, work. Leif Drexler was one, his work was incredible. That said, I’ve had a millionaire state that he almost fainted when he got the bill. Doesn’t matter, there are people who will pay for “perfect”. He had a nickname, though, that rhymed with Leif. You figure it out….
I had one well known collector state, and I paraphrase, after I did work for him, “You’re too expensive, can we schedule the next project?”
I don’t do perfect, but I do work that the huge majority say “very nice”, and in most judging loses no points. Not bragging if it’s fact.
Finding someone these days who will do a very nice upholstery job, paying attention to detail and using correct materials, is very, very, difficult…..
Thanks everyone! My guy quoted in the 25k range. I guess that is not bad based on the posts. At least I now know.
As one member said, restoration is a sobering experience, to the owner and their wallet. Lolol
P.s. I’m bleeding out, $$$. I’ve actually,done very well min us a few things. ( chrome wires, leather trunk n luggage etc)
I see the light at the end of the tunnel. Wahoooo! Rick. Merry xmas and happy holidays to you all.
In my opinion, 25K should get you a top of the line job, maybe not Pebble Beach but excellent. That’s a lot of money. I know of a 1910 Stanley Steamer that had paint, upholstery, and top done by an Amish craftsman, total bill was a little over $30K and it’s beautiful.
I’d ask a lot of questions before your guy does it, maybe you already know the answers.
Does your upholstery guy have experience with early open cars? Is he going to use period materials (cotton, horsehair etc.) or foam? I strongly recommend NOT using foam, it’s not a long term material these days. Does he know how to correctly pad and form top so that it doesn’t look like a starved horse?
Hope all goes well, as you say, the upholstery guy is usually the last in line on a project, and by then the money is tight!
Oh man, David is so right.
If you’re going to spend that kind of money, please… even spend a few extra bucks to get the job done in period materials. Cotton, horsehair, whatever was correct at the time.
So often I see a car I like, apparently nicely restored, but the guy used a wrong material or stuffed the seats with foam.
Foam just looks bad. Not only does it feel all wrong, but even without touching it, you know it’s wrong.
But being a Pierce Arrow man, I trust that you do have good taste and will only do the job right. I’ve just been hugely disappointed too many times by poor restorations of otherwise desirable cars.
I’d add a few things.
Not long ago an article of mine appeared in the ARROW about placement of springs in Pierce seats. Make sure your trimmer doesn’t take the seats apart and throw all the springs in a pile, there are specific placements for springs and pairs of springs.
Make sure he understands automotive leather. It’s usually a little thicker, has higher UV resistance, and a tougher finish to withstand the “sliding” in and out that furniture does not see.
Use a leather with some gloss to it, that will make getting in and out of car easier. A matte finish leather tends to grab your pants when sliding on it.
The seat pattern in this period Pierce touring is pretty simple. I think his price is high if he’s not very experience in open car restoration.
That said, if his price also includes a set of side curtains and a boot, then it’s closer to reasonable. A set of side curtains should cost about what a top costs, there’s that much detail to attend to. Your Pierce should also have very specific side curtain hardware, which includes rods to mount in doors and steel horizontal bars sewn into curtains to span across the top.
If you have a four bow top, there may be a pocket at the front of the rear top curtain which captures the rear side curtain. Lots of details, as mentioned, to have side curtains correct.
David, as a guy who is active in this trade, your tips are a tremendous asset to us. It’s great value to have these ‘taking points’ when considering a shop about a job.
Thanks for sharing!
I purchased a 1930 Model A Standard Phaeton (4 door). The previous owner
restored it and didn’t care about money. He had one of the best West Coast
Pebble Beach upholsterers do it (Niminic).At first he said, “I don’t do
Fords”. The restorer said,” I spent $100,000 with you last year and I
insist you do this Ford”. Niminic said, “alright, but I will do it to my
standards and you will pay $6,500″. I have zero chance of having Niminic
do repairs or replacement, so I’ve never had the top down and I’m very
careful.
I’ve had numerous requests to do Model A or Model T tops.
The conversation usually goes like this, Owner and Me:
O: I need a top for my Ford, and I don’t like the way kits look. I want a top that really fits and looks great.
M: Ok, I can make one from scratch and it will be very nice.
O: Great! I’ve heard that you do nice tops. How much will it cost?
M: Well, materials and labor, somewhere between $3000 and $4000.
O: WHAT? That’s crazy. I can buy a kit for a few hundred dollars!
M: Yes, true, and unless put on by a professional, a kit usually looks awful, that’s why you came to me in the first place.
O: Forget it, no way I’m paying that kind of money for a simple top….
And so it goes.
If your guy had a Pebble Beach quality trimmer do a top and interior on a Model A phaeton for $6500, he got a bargain. Of course, he wouldn’t have gotten the bargain without spending the first $100K!!
Tony, Ken Nemanic (note spelling) is indeed superb. He’s now semi-retired and does tops but you may need to twist his arm to do complete interiors.