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A Silver Arrow once lived in the Florida Region, owned by Dr. Vesley in Homosassa Springs (north of St. Petersburg) just before the new Millennium began. We held our Fall meet up there to see it. A problem with the Silver Arrow’s battery meant staying in its travel trailer but we were still able to get a good look at it.
I’m unable to find an old PAS Roster that has the Vesley car number – more easily traced in PAS records, but likely not back to the original owner. Only two of the five cars appear to have been sold new – to the chemist Edward Worden in Millburn, New Jersey and the Stiffel family (silver manufacturers) in Baltimore. The other three were used for promotional tours – one went to Europe in the Fall of 1933 parked in the lobby of the George V Hotel during the Paris Automobile show.
Pierce-Arrow went to great lengths to make sure no one could find out exactly how many were made – the first cars were painted café au lait with brown molding; later, one was seen in black with silver molding, a silver car with black molding went to Paris and Geneva. Whether those are all original colors or may never be known. They say the original plans were to build 10 of them, that may explain why the car numbers were scrambled to muddy the waters there, too – something other manufacturers did back then with series-customs, too.
Four Silver Arrows are known to survive but only three remain as built; a fourth had the body converted to a roadster, and is called the Khouri roadster (it is not clear if that car is hiding or gone). The fifth Silver Arrow may or may not survive. Seeing photos of it in Europe lend credence to stories of a Pierce-Arrow owner whose relative said he saw it in Bombay. Stories about one being in north Africa during the war also imply a relationship to the one in Europe. But the numbers to verify any of this have yet to be found – say, which one was on the dock in Vera Cruz in late 1933 – could it have gone to France instead of back to New York?
What is also interesting is how the Silver Arrow is often described. Its unusualness has some saying it is a concept car or prototype. Pierce-Arrow was emphatic that was not the case; it was a small run production car that could be purchased and driven: using a standard chassis makes it a series-custom production built at the factory. Its technical cutting edge treats included power brakes and hydraulic valve lifters. Pierce-Arrows were identified by car numbers not serial numbers. Could the Silver Arrow be just another example of what Pierce liked to call “Pierce-Arrow Pioneering?””
Brooks”
Here is an article about the car Rick mentioned above. This was the 2001 National Convention it says. Nice pictures
Bernie’s listings of the Silver Arrow cars shows that the Tom Derro car was engine #360007, with a body #2575018. This car was also owned by Paul Schnabel, Harrah, the Imperial Palace and most recently by Richie Clyne.
Tom Derro may have said that it was the #1 car because that car has the lowest body number (missing on one other S-A) even if the engine number is not the lowest.
The Vesley car was engine# 360001, but the body # is missing from the list.
Regarding the Kouri Roadster (S-A engine #360003), Bernie writes: This car apparently built on a previous model lengthened chassis, using a 1933 engine numbered in the “experimental” series. Enamel plaque on front light bar says “Silver Arrow Custom body by David B. Kouri, Detroit, MI June 18, 1933″
Note parentheses in lines above – all of that is on the enamel plaque.
Engine #360006 was used in the Ab Jenkins Roadster for the 1933 speed record at Bonneville.
Five S-A cars, seven S-A engines.
I hope that this is helpful.
The Kouri “roadster” engine should be examined by an expert to determine if it is a car engine, an experimental engine, or a fire truck engine. I have an opinion, based on detailed photos, but would like to examine it in person. The Kouri info needs to be PROVEN or posting about it here in this form may turn legend, conjecture, or other past rumors and information into “fact”. Period photos, build sheet, or other verifiable proof of what the car is or is not should be determined, I have lots of thoughts on this car, but for now am keeping them to myself. The most interesting question is, is it a Pierce Arrow? Is it a early or of the era hot rod or rich mans toy? I think I have the car figured out the best I can from photos, but I would like to see it some day. Does any one have hard facts of its build and construction of this car? Ed.
Here is a discussion of the Kouri car, and if you scroll down the responses you’ll come to a set of pictures, and information and comments by the owner of the car (at least in 2014, still in that collection?)
Again, according to Bernie’s listings, there is a history recorded for engines numbered: 360001, 360002, 360003, 360005, 360006 & 360007.
There is no listing for an engine numbered 360004, but there is reference to a Silver-Arrow without body number and engine number that was purchased by (Dr. Edward C. Worden, a Chemist known for cellulose research. Photo in Brierley book “Auburn, Reo….” shows photo of owner standing with the Silver Arrow in mid-’33. Which car this is, is not known). (Bernie’s comments in parentheses.)
The Dr. Worden car / engine may be the 360004 engine car, but that is a DK.
Bernie also lists that there were five (5) 12-cylinder Silver-Arrow engines and two (2) Experimental engines, but they all have the 360001 through 360007 numbers with 30007 being in a Silver-Arrow.
So, the 360003 (Kouri) and 360006 (Jenkins) engines, although listed as Experimental, appear in the middle to near end of the production of those engines.
The Kouri Roadster is / was owned by a James R. Diefenthal of New Orleans, and pics of the car sure look like it could have been built for a New Orleans guy, as it is a pretty wild ride. It would have garnered a good deal of attention screaming through the bayous of Louisiana.
Also note that all of the other 1933 12-cylinder car engines are either 335XXX or 355XXX.
Here is another picture of the Vesley Silver Arrow car, also taken years ago (by Gene Becker) at the Florida Region meet in Homosassa Springs. If you look closely you will see Walter Benjamin’s wife looking in from the side door of the trailer, as if to testify at the difficulty to get a good look.
I’m hoping the discussion will uncover some definite factory identification of the cars’ engine and car numbers. If you work their 1933 presence backwards – and assume the two October 1933 sightings were different cars – i.e., the café au lait/brown car in Mexico did go back to New York from Vera Cruz (on the Ward Line’s Orizaba); so the silver one with a black band seen in Paris and Geneva (and maybe Italy – it was covered in the Italian car club magazine) was a different car. We know both the Worden and Stiffel cars were cafe au lait and brown, and they still owned them. Describing the fifth car as having been reworked by Kouri in mid June 1933 may be possible (but that early 1933 date and special chassis language sound far-fetched) but what about the car painted black with a silver band – that made a cameo appearance in the “Flight of the Arrow” movie and also at the Indianapolis Speedway? Is that the Kouri car or the silver car photographed in Geneva? Some of those identification numbers must exist. I tried to get the Stiffel number but was stopped midway by the Maryland registration office; however, I did get to see they have individual index cards of the Pierces registered in the state just after WWII. The car that went to Mexico may be traceable from the Three Flags Expedition, as a similar type trace may be made for the European car.
Brooks
Brooks,
According to Bernie’s files, the Kouri Roadster was never a Silver Arrow, but apparently a car constructed with one of the seven (7) Silver Arrow serial numbered engines.
I find no listing for a “Stiffel” car but there is a Steiff car – 2575031 / 360002.
There is also no mention of Silver Arrow cars going to or coming from Mexico.
M. C. Hudson, owner of Crazy Water Company, Mineral Wells, Texas is the closest owner that I see to Mexico.
His car was the 360001 engine – no body number listed.
It is a puzzle, eh?
Peter
I think it’s interesting that Model T was made in the numbers of 15 million, Model T guys can pinpoint a car’s manufacture almost to the hour, and we can’t identify 5 very special cars in a definite manner!
Thanks to all who’ve posted, very interesting.
My personal opinion is the Kouri roadster is in no way a Pierce Arrow, but a full custom car that happens to use a Pierce engine. My other opinion is that it’s unfortunate looking, but I’ll keep that opinion to myself!
Here’s a common photo when the Long Island Auto Museum owned it.
Rare snap shot of the car that was at the Century of Progress. Another Great unknown Century of Progress car has been found over the past few years. A 1934 Chrysler Airflow Custom Imperial CW Limo. 147″ WB. Both the frame, underside, and body was painted with a custom color not offered for other Airflows. The build sheet was found by Chrysler and confirms its history at the Chicago Worlds Fair. So it looks like the 20 Grand Dusey, the Packard, Car of the Dome, Chrysler Custom Imperial Airflow Limo, and by logic and reason it is believed that one of the P-A Silver Arrows was at the Chicago Worlds Fair. Looks like only the Cadillac Aero-Dynamic Coupe did not survive.
David –
I hope you are not closing the conversation – the Silver Arrow in the Hemmings/Sotheby’s auction catalog story still has not been positively identified! Are “strongly believed” and “thought to have been seen…” the best that can be done for what was the most important automobile in the world in 1933? If that car was the Silver Arrow at the Chicago World’s Fair, should it not be traceable in the Socony-Vacuum/Mobil Oil and Studebaker Museum records, plus the personal records of the engineers that were there, which might also require visiting the SAE library)?
Saying the car was at the Chicago World’s Fair indicates it was the car the Socony/Mobil “Under Three Flags Expedition” in October 1933 – you can see it driving down the Fair’s Midway in my “Auburn, Reo, Franklin and Pierce-Arrow…” book, which also shows images of the car posing with the pyramids in Mexico.
While I appreciate being told I still confuse Stiffel lamps and Steiff silver, and to finally know the strange Kouri Silver Arrow story car has been debunked, I am very disappointed that 25 years after first publishing Socony/Mobil’s photos of the Silver Arrow in Mexico, and another set in the VMCCA Bulb Horn 10 years later (from a Mexican automobile magazine in the NAHC/Detroit Library), the only things said about the car in Mexico is that it is not mentioned in certain notes. Could someone need new glasses, or a kick?
So I hope this discussion continues until someone identifies that Silver Arrow. Perhaps getting out a set of the ProQuest Historical newspapers – there are several dozen now – at the Library will be or spark finding a new source. The first time I was at the Studebaker Museum, the records were only partially unpacked, with some still on pallets. I came away caked with dust and hope I can be forgiven for having to give up after finding photos of the Silver Arrow in Geneva.
Brooks
Brooks…no, I’m surely not advocating closing further discussion! It just seems odd that the history of at least two of the cars is murky, two are well documented, and the third seems to be somewhere in between.
I really don’t think the Kouri car started out as a Silver Arrow, I think it was an engine that got put into a custom car. Just common sense seems to preclude that premise, why take a custom car, one of five, and make another, ummmm, uglier, custom out of it? I’ve stood next to the Kouri car when it was at Harrah’s, and it has no feel of Pierce, sans the engine.
I agree with Dave on the Kouri car. Quite a bit of it is Cadillac. With no history it is what it is……an unknown assembly of parts.
OK, so to summarize, attached is the list as I see it now. I’m sure that a better, more complete, list exists, but I’m doing this for my entertainment! It would seem that 360005 and 360007 are well known and documented cars, 360001 still exists, and 360002 and 36004 are “missing or assumed destroyed””.
Any comments or corrections welcome!”
David,
Your notes are correct.
The 2575029 car is the car that is currently being auctioned.
I appreciate Brooks’ frustration and it would be good if there were better historical notes.
I have nothing that mentions the Mexico /SOCONY car.
Cheers,
Peter
David’s list is both entertaining and helpful! But the numbers do not reveal which one was painted black and seen at the Indianapolis Speedway. Would the Speedway have recorded its identification? Where is the silver-colored one that was photographed in Geneva? There used to be a convertible sedan over there – does anyone ever stop by the Geneva automobile club?
It is interesting to see Tom Derro’s car now in San Francisco. The three known survivors all had interior upholstery looking much different than the original, despite original photos being published as far back as Bentley’s Old Car Guide. I helped judge the car at the Eastern Concours in Bethlehem and could not believe the interior. The judging was about overall looks so that detail was not a point issue. A few weeks later, out of the blue, I had a call from Tom. I mentioned what I saw and sent him glossies of the original interior. He did not seem too happy about what they showed but liked the door pocket flaps shaped to resemble half an arrowhead. Asked what they looked to be made of, he said “that’s leather.”” Anyone who has seen the car more recently should be able to tell it from the other survivors even if blindfolded.
I do not know what else to add about the Mexican car. There is an automobile museum in Mexico City that might be able to help – they have a great website that incudes two Pierces. I called them once; they know some English but did not respond to a follow up writing to them. Perhaps adding that the President of the country went for a ride in it may help today.
There are so many great fine points here. Paul Auman’s little notebook says the first Silver Arrow was put on the train for New York at 10:30AM. The scheduled docking time in New York for the Ward Line’s Oribaza laden with the Silver Arrow and the other Three Flags cars was 10:30 AM. That may be just a coincidence but could also be an enthusiasts’ mark. Should we check Diles’ papers to be sure?
Brooks”
Tom Derro’s car is still in the garage as of last month. According to two different people I have spoken to. Both of whom I trust and believe. Ed.
There was documentation that Tom Derro’s car was/is 360007, the car that was auctioned by BJ and now resides in San Francisco.
Are you saying that the Derro car is NOT 360007? If so, what number is it?
Here’s a picture of the front seat of the car that was auctioned by Barrett Jackson and now lives in San Francisco. Is this the Derro car, I do notice pointed flap on the door panel…..?
