Hemmings article on 1933 Silver Arrow

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Not sure as to numbers, but contact with the family and caretaker clearly stated the car was still in the garage last month.

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I believe you, Ed, just trying to figure out which car is which, no valid reason for doing so other than curiosity!

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Not to muddy the waters, but there are two Stieff family businesses based out of Baltimore that may be associated with the Silver Arrow. Charles M Stieff started making pianos in 1853. Charles C. Stieff, Charles M’s grandson, started a silver business in 1892 that closed in 1999. I did some remodeling for the Stieff family on a beautiful house in the Maryland suburbs of DC a few years ago. Husband and wife were in their mid 90’s, and were associated with the piano making side of the family. They made (make?) pianos that rival Baldwin. Great people.

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First photo of the interior of Tom Derro’s car from 2007 PAS meet.

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Second photo of the interior of Tom Derro’s car from 2007 PAS meet.

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Dave, I do not track these cars myself. I have spoken to someone who has files on all the cars. I will contact him tomorrow and get an answer if the car in California is the Derro’s car. I am on the road so I don’t have any notes or files with me. Ed

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Ed, no rush…from the interior color, it would appear that the Derro car was NOT the one sold at the B/J auction.

The question now would be what serial number is Derro’s car, as the serial number of the one sold at the B/J auction was documented in auction literature as 360007. There is a reference at some point that the Derro car is “number 1”, and if so maybe it’s 360001?

Thanks and safe travels, Ed…..

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This comment may be a repeat, as I was proofreading I pushed the wrong button and everything disappeared.

I’m glad to see the information about Tom Derro’s car is helpful. The pocket flap really looks great – I never took a photo of them and am delighted others did. The striped broadcloth in the car seems to have become a Silver Arrow restoration standard but it is not correct, as the factory photos show.

The list of items identifying the Steiff car are very interesting, especially the repossession mention!, but it is not clear which one has the numbers – the bill of sale, registration, insurance papers, etc.? Is that known?

Paul Jacobs mentioned earlier that the Silver Arrows had tweaked engines. The RM/Sotheby sales catalog says the car produced 160HP; my research on the Three Flags car show 175HP – perhaps they were the first 1934 engines. Pierce engineer Omar Diles drove the Three Flags car, and also worked on and drove the Ab Jenkins racecars, so he was probably the one who tweaked them.

As I looked at Jim Frederick’s photo of the Silver Arrow at the Chicago World’s Fair, I realized a Silver Arrow probably visited the Fair more than once. Whether the Three Flags Expedition car was different I do not know, but a look through the Chicago newspapers might find more. or tell us something about that Chicago fellow who bought the car.

Brooks

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Hello Gents,

I just sent an email to The Academy of Art University Automobile Museum that David Coco mention in a separate message Board listing.

I asked for serial numbers of the two (2) cars that they have in their collection (one deep red the other silver and black).

Perhaps, this will help.

Peter

http://www.academyautomuseum.org/index.php/nggallery/page/index.php?page_id=13

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360001 was owned by Dr.Vesley in the 1990’s. I think this might be the Tom Derro car now. Does Tom Derro still own this car?

360005 is the D.Cameron Peck, Henry Austin Clark car going to be auctioned by RM Sothebys. The current owner, is he a member of the P-A Club?

360007 was the Harrah’s ,Black Hawk-Imperial Palace/Richie Clyne car that was auctioned off a couple years ago by B.J. I looked at this car at the Imperial Palace 2 times in the mid 2000’s when I had some business in Las Vegas. It is now in San Francisco

Does anyone know if 360002 and 360004 where destroyed for sure, or still missing?

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Hello Gents,

Of the two Silver-Arrow cars in the collection of the Academy of Art University Automobile Museum, one is an “original” Silver Arrow (1933 Silver Arrow, ex- Harrah, #: 2575018 / 360007), while the other is a “production” Silver Arrow (1935, Silver Arrow 12, Coupe’ ex – Harris Laskey, 405002).

This information comes from Paul Borgwardt, Curator of the Museum.

The 360007 car is shown as having the following owners: Richie Clyne, Imperial Palace, Tom Derro, Harrah’s & Paul Schnabel.

The 360001 car is shown as having the following owners: Don Williams, Dr. Don Vesley, Jim Brucker, “various”, F. Robert Greene, D. L. D’Oyley & M. C. Hudson.

The 360005 Car is last listed as having the following owners: Blackhawk Collection, Henry Austin Clark & D. Cameron Peck.

The 360002 car is listed as most recently owned by John Grimage.

There is no listing for the 360004 car and that may be the Dr. Edward C. Worden car for which there is neither a body code # nor an engine code #.

George Teebay tells me that the list from which I work was last updated in 2005, so it is out of date on current owners.

PHEW!

Peter

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Great information, Peter, thanks.

It would seem to explain all, except that:

-Tom Derro listed his car in the roster as 360007 at one point

-the interior in the car Tom Derro showed appears to be different than that interior in 360007 when it went through the B/J auction

-Ed has it on good authority that a Silver Arrow still resides in Tom Derro’s garage

I love a good mystery! It would seem that the only “positive” thing about a missing car is that 360002 had the rear body hacked off by John Grimage so he could haul firewood, possibly in the late 40’s or early 50’s in Baltimore, and there’s no record of that car being rebuilt or rebodied, so it probably ended up in a junk yard and was destroyed.

360004 is the most intriguing of the group, as it seems to have disappeared as a whole, and with the world as such a big place, it could very well be in a garage somewhere, with my guess being overseas….I think a person or family would be hard pressed to hide such a high profile car in the United States…

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As I progress thru life, I find I require more simplicity and organization.

I put the following identifiers on the three known cars. There are three types of wheels on the cars. Red wire, chrome wire and chrome full disc. The latter is the one that seems most mercurial along with mystery car number 4.

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OK, let’s review the cars based on wheel treatment.

360001, Vesley/Hudson car, had full wheel covers (discs), apparently the only known existing Silver Arrow to carry those. Tom Derro’s car has full covers. Thus, I’m thinking 360001 is Tom’s car, and still resides in his garage, as Ed mentioned.

360002, Stieff car, had full wheel covers, but it’s assumed lost.

360003, not applicable

360004, Worden car, unknown

360005, Sotheby Auction car, shown originally with discs, shown with painted wire wheels when owned by Peck/Clark, but now has chrome wire wheels

360006, not applicable

360007, San Francisco Academy of Art, painted red wire wheels

So my opinion now, based on Mr. Lyons astute observation to simplify, and Ed’s source saying the Derro car is still in TD’s garage, that Derro’s name should NOT be associated with 360007.

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Gentlemen, at risk of adding to the mystery:

Chassis 2575018, Engine 360007 shows in Bernie’s records as being the Tom Derro car, subsequently sold to a Richie Clyne in Las Vegas, NV in 2008.

Indeed, our 2009 PAS Roster shows this Chassis # and Engine # under Richie Clyne. These are the same numbers that appear in the 2000 PAS Roster under Tom Derro.

I could possibly believe that the “7”” was mistaken for a “”1″” when it was listed in the Roster. Do we have chassis numbers for the other cars to cross reference with Bernie’s files (in addition to the engine numbers)?

Chris Diekman”

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I have extensive records of all the correct engine and chassis numbers, as well as the ownership history of all the cars built. (Custom Silver Arrow) From delivery city and first owners, and subsequent owners. I can not share them as I promised to keep them to myself. The PAS society records have some errors in the numbers, probably form being transcribed incorrectly. There are still many interesting questions unanswered. The Red speedster has a rather well known and understood history, not much mystery to it, just many historians who do t want to be hassled by posting or publishing it’s true origins. It does not belong in any discussion of Custom Silver Arrows, weather or not you believe the motor is in fact a Pierce car engine that has a special serial number, or if it is just another rest stamped Seagrave as some have reported. I have never seen the car in person, so I can’t comment on the engine and the numbers. I have seen extensive photos on the car and its chassis, and have formed an opinion on it. Like many others, I find it is not worth my while to debate it. Most importantly, a Pierce Custom Silver Arrow is one of the top world class sedans of any era. The price estimate of the auction catalog verifies this. There are not a total of ten four door cars on the planet that could come close to numbers like those posted on a car that need a restoration. Ed

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Sorry for the above spelling and missing letters in the text, I am on the road and typing from a phone that I can hardly see! Ed.

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Here is a picture of a Silver Arrow in October 1933, the one leading the Three Flags Expedition (known in Mexico as Bajo Tres Banderas) in front of the Gran Casino in Monterey, Mexico. I found this image, a small picture among clippings, at the National Automotive History Collection (NAHC) in the Detroit Public Library many years ago. The image is reproduced with the library’s permission for this PAS Members Only discussion – please do not email, forward or copy it.

I have never looked through Mexican newspapers and cannot say how they covered the Three Flags Expedition. At the time it was not unusual for newspapers in smaller countries to publish automobile identification and license plate numbers, so there may be a wealth of information still to be found down there in addition to just finding good stuff. I hope someone decides to look and will report back.

Brooks

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Very few of us have a cool $4 Mill to put down on this car, plus a restoration! It must have gone to a museum or out of the country. Any ideas where it went?

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don’t know who the successful bider was. I was at the action. the car was restored. maybe a few years ago. car was magnificent. my novice opinion.

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