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I am trying to help a family get a realistic value range on two series 80 cars. Both cars have not been run in approximately 5 years.
Car #1:
1925 or 1926 seven passenger sedan
Straight body, older driver quality paint job (fenders would benefit from being repainted)
Older restored interior with one L shaped tear in the front seat material
The engine needs a complete rebuild, when I heard it run five years ago, it had more than valve noise going on.
Top good
Bright work should be redone, but nice patina.
Tires are old, but not age cracked
Car # 2:
Believed to be a 1926 or 1927 EDL
Straight body, older repaint, a lot of the repaint flaking off
Original interior front and back. From my perspective, too nice to replace. Gold plated handles in back
Intercom system
I have never heard this car run, but I have to assume it will need work.
Top looks original and serviceable
Exterior bright work should be redone.
Tires are old and should be replaced.
This is all the information that I can share at this time. As I mentioned earlier, I am trying to help the family get a realistic retail value range on each of these two cars. What are your thoughts?
Thank you,
John
Hi John, photos would certainly help.
The two cars could be part of the coach series, with squared off roof and window lines, with faux wood grain painted interior window trim.
Or the two cars could be Deluxe versions, with nicer trim, rounded rear side window shapes and real wood interior window trim..
The engines really need diagnosing. They might need full rebuilds or even replacement engine block or crankcase depending on what their condition is.
Assuming a bad engine for the 7 passenger sedan, and needing at least a seat cushion reupholstered, some repaint, i’d hesitate at any more than $5k-$8k.
The EDL is more of a mystery, a big ??? on the engine, could be stuck, with mouse nests in the cylinders or it could start and be a good engine with some TLC.. totally unknown.at this time..
With old paint flaking off, it needs a paint job. a good paint job alone might exceed the market value of the car.
Plating puts the car even further in the red.
I’ll guess a similar range as the other car, but an EDL has a cramped driver’s compartment, because of the divider window mechanism moving the driver’s seat cushions forward about 2″..
So, engine, paint, and plating needing to be done.. $4K-$7K.
For a few real-world comparable car sales.
There was from roughly 2014 through 2016, as VERY nice 1928 Series 81 EDL, or it might have been a 7 passenger sedan that was on Ebay, and made the rounds of all the major auctions for two years. The ‘buy it now was in the range of $48,000. the car never got a bid over $30-$32,000 at any of the auctions.
I looked the car over very thoroughly at the Auctions America Labor Day event in 2016. I’d have judged t in the 90-95 out of 100 range,, like I said a very nice car.
A the ’16 auction I saw it at, it brought $28K high bid. it was in the ‘still for sale’ lot afterwards with a $32K price tag.
Another more recent car, a ’26 or ’27 Series 80 2dr coach was for sale in our Emporium, for $24,500 I think. I was mechanically nearly perfect, the engine had beens thoroughly inspected, and the running and driving had been well sorted-out. The black fenders and splash pans had been repainted. the body’s paint was original or old. but still reasonably presentable, it had a NEW top, and NEW pyramid Aluminum running board covers.
This car sold for about $22,000, and needed nothing but some seat covers, or reupholstered seats.. little else.
So, with the amount of work needed, these two sedans are not worth a lot of money,
It’s pretty sad to see such nice cars bring so little money, but the Series 80 is a 45=50mph car unless it has a fresh engine and an overdrive or high speed gears. Even then, the 7passenger sedan and the EDL are the heaviest of the Series 80 line of cars, and speed and acceleration will suffer from the weight.. These are very nice driving cars with good steering and good brakes, but a bit underpowered for today’s roads and traffic.
Greg Long
John,
Officially, the Pierce-Arrow Society does not offer valuations on Pierce-Arrow vehicles.
This matter was a topic of discussion a number of years ago at a PAS Board of Directors Meeting.
The position came subsequent to other persons indicating the the value of their car was provided by the PAS.
I believe that this position also applies to Members of the Board of Directors.
You may use whatever others offer as valuations, but they cannot be used with a tag / caption / endorsement that the valuation came from the Pierce-Arrow Society.
Of course, you can search the internet for cars for sale and you will undoubtedly find prices higher than those from auction selling prices.
High auction prices require at least two individuals who WANT a particular item and care not what they pay.
If your valuation need is for estate matters, then published Offering Prices from Online Sellers would be preferable, that is unless you want low-ball prices.
You may also use vehicles listed on the PAS Emporium as comparable, but again, without endorsement from the PAS and keep in mind that many of those prices are high.
I hope that this information is useful.
Peter
Greg,
Thanks for the input on standard vs deluxe models. I don’t know much about series 80 cars and their differences. The seven-passanger is a standard, I’ll have to check on the EDL, but believe it is a deluxe version. I would have thought an EDL in a series 80 would be a rare bird. I will comment about your post a bit more in the next couple of days.
Peter,
The owner is in a nursing home and probably will never make it home again. No valuation derived from this request will be tied to PAS in any way. I am simply trying to help a family with information and help prevent them from being taken advantage of when they decide to list the cars.
I wouldn’t have even submitted the request if, unrestored for the most part, information on seven-passenger and EDL’s was readily available.
John
Peter and President Rich Lange have asked me to comment on this.
At our Board Meeting on February 26, 2017, the Board approved the following ByLaw. The phrasing has been parsed to a fine degree by both the Constitution & ByLaws Committee and by the Board itself, as the Board kicked back the Committee’s initial recommendation at least once. So what you see below is the Lowest Common Denominator of which all parties could buy into.
“BYLAW 4 – Vehicle Estimates and Appraisals –No Director shall use his/her position in the Pierce-Arrow Society as establishing a knowledge base to offer an opinion on the authenticity of specific Pierce-Arrow vehicles or on the possible sale values of such vehicle. However, this is not intended to restrict any director offering an opinion as a private individual based on his/her own personal knowledge.”
So let us say, in this case, that each of the commenters is offering a personal, informed opinion on the basis of limited information provided, without benefit of photographs much less informed inspection of the subject vehicles. There are many variables unknown, such as the condition of the wooden body structure.
The reason for the policy is that in almost all previous cases, requests for valuation have come from OUTSIDE the PAS, usually (as in this case) from families seeking to dispose of estate vehicles. Either under-valuation or over-valuation by a PAS Board member could have litigious repercussions when a car is subsequently flipped or when a member valuation is not reached.
EBay ‘advanced search’ with the ‘completed sales’ block checked will only give results for the past 30 days. Google or other search engines will cover vehicles offered on eBay for the past several years. In this case IMHO **as an individual** I recommend professional appraisals from individuals with thorough knowledge of S80 cars.
John,
I am sad for your friend’s / friend’s family’s situation.
I certainly did not think that you were of malicious intent, but merely doing a favor for a friend.
I was just acting as a Past PAS president policy hack.
Being the owner of a 1925 Series 80, 7-Passenger DeLuxe Sedan, I can tell you the the easiest way to determine Coach vs. DeLuxe from 30-feet is the tailing edge of the rear window.
The Coach is straight and the DeLuxe has a lovely curve.
Each effect carries on to the rear roofline design.
For useless trivia, the difference in cost between a 1925, Series 80, 7-Passenger DeLuxe and a Series 80, EDL was about $45.00.
Yup, just $45.00 for that lovely mahogany divider that hid the jump seats and provided a roll-up window for privacy.
Those were $4,000.00 autos in 1925 when a Ford Model T enclosed car could be had for under $500.00.
Peter
John,
BTW, the value of the EDL is likely close to that of the 7-Passenger model, Coach or DeLuxe.
Peter
John, a current ad in The Emporium is a project Series 80 WANTED (quoted below)
“I am looking for a 1926 Series 80 without a running drive train and engine. This can be a non runner or a car with the drive train and engine gone. Any body style would be considered. May consider any model 80 from 1925-1927 but prefer 1926. eMail me to let me know what you have or call Nick at 586-453-9316. Thank you
Nick Grudich, 2378 Westcott Court, Shelby Township, MI 48316-1281 O: 586-453-9316 [email protected]”
John and others:
My pricing is as i believe I alluded to is my opinion. And as i mentioned, it is entirely dependant on looking at and looking over the cars, and diagnosing the engine issues.
I know my suggested values seem low, but when you look at what a complete RUNNING car can be acquired for, then factor in any amount of work needed, then i think my estimated values make a lot more sense.
There have of course been many cars in similar condition bought for a lot more than my estimates. but not any that I can think of were a pot of gold found under a old fender. Rarely do cars ever need a lot LESS work than anticipated, almost always they need MUCH MORE work and money spent than anticipated.
A case in point is my own 1925 Series 80 touring car.. it was purported to have had the engine ‘gone-through’ by a well known museum’s restoration shop.. Well let me tell you, the only thing that was ‘gone through’ was the paint through a spray can, putting a nice coat of paint on a very worn out engine..
The resulting complete engine overhaul cost a lot of money, more than $6000 in parts and farmed-out machine work. With paying myself maybe $2/hour.. the engine overhaul cost in excess of $10,000.
So, i suggest caution when assuming what may or may not be needed to be done to a car or engine..
With the real market value of a Series 80 sedan of just about any flavor, not realistically exceeding $35k, and a
driver-condition car selling for $22K, then I’ll stick with my estimates given earlier.
Greg Long
Hi John, regarding your comment above:
“I would have thought an EDL in a Series 80 would be a rare bird”
While this is true, ‘rare’ does not equal ‘valuable’ or ‘desirable’.
The two factors are weight and leg-room.
The weights listed in a 1926 owners manual for the Runabout and EDL
are 3205 and 3615 respectively. So the EDL has a 410 pound higher weight.
This is roughly the weight of two passengers.
The performance of the heavier EDL will suffer accordingly.
Looking in a Salesman’s Data Book, which has drawings of the body styles
available, along with various dimensions, the measurement for the distance
between the bottom of the steering wheel and the seat back for the EDL is
13-1/2″, for a 5 passenger sedan, it is 15-1/4″. That’s a lot of belly and leg
room lost !!
So a chauffeur or taxi driver had to deal will considerable less room than the
‘owner-driven’ Sedan. Since even the most ‘roomy’ front seat/driver’s comparment
is still rather cramped for a person at or over 5’10”, you can imagine how
uncomfortable an EDL is for many drivers.
Since i like to drive my cars a LOT, the uncomfortable driver’s compartment
is a big negative for me considering an EDL or EDL-Taxi version Series 80.
Greg Long
John –
Have you checked the NADA Antique Car price guide? It is a regular publication that gives value ranges starting from 1926. Many libraries have a copy. If you have the Pierce-Arrow car numbers, that will identify the year. The Society has copies of the the factory output tables, called recension tables (long ago back issues of the ARROW also have them), that can approximate when that part of the run was built, if that is also needed.
Brooks
Brooks,
I did look at NADA and will, for the most part, use that to speak with the family.
Thank you for the input from everyone.
John
I looked at the NADA pricing guide. I looked at at least 5 different years of vehicles.
And to be blunt and honest, the guide is not at all realistic. or accurate,
Example; A Series 80 7 passenger Sedan or EDL high retail is higher than for
a Series 80 4 or 7 passenger Touring car, or for a Runabout.
This is absurd, an open car is not going to sell for less than an enclosed car, all conditions being equal.
I do not know how the NADA values are arrived at, but they certainly do not reflect real life ‘sold’ values
seen at auctions, events like Hershey or Auburn etc..
I suppose that if the values are partially taken from state DMV registration and car title applications where
a buyer has to state a price paid for the car, which then is taxed by the state.. Then some of the low values
I saw in the price guide might make sense..
Typical ‘Garbage-in=Garbage-out” if the ‘I paid $XXXxx for it’ prices are given any validity.
Looking into later cars. I have to laugh.
How about a 1933 V12 Salon Convertible Coupe/Roadster??
Not one of these vehicles has sold for less than $250,000 in the last 5 years, and yet $160,000 is a ‘high retail’.
So, an NADA price guide might have reasonably accurate values for cars from say, 1970-2016, for cars from the pre-WWII era, the price guide is seriously ‘miss-guided’
Greg Long
Greg,
I understand your feelings about NADA values for the restored examples you cited.
Please remember, I am trying to help a deserving family eventually SELL their, largely original, Series 80 Pierce-Arrows. I believe that the NADA guide, for very sound cars that are currently not running, is fair. I also personally believe that any Pierce-Arrow that isn’t a rust bucket, hasn’t been used in a demolition derby, has good wood and top, has serviceable interior, is complete, but might need engine work is worth $15K. My opinion…
Again, thank you all for your input.
Hi John, I understand your position and feelings. but you are trying to help them SELL the cars, not just adverse them and look at the ad with no results.. As an old saying goes; ‘Asking and getting’ are two different things..
A 6 cylinder engine overhaul can be as much as $10K-$12K, And unless the cars are near perfect, and from the description provided, they are not, then the gabble on the engine condition is too great for a $15K purchase price.
I would recommend posting some good photos, and maybe hiring someone to attempt to make the engines run. or at the very least find out if they will turn over and if they have compression. There is just way too much not known.
One of the most frustrating situations is for someone to overprice their car offered for sale, on the belief that it’s ‘rare’ or ‘special’ or whatever, and a buyer has to educate the seller about the reality of the value of the car. It’s an uphill battle for the buyer, and a depressing downhill experience for the seller. I’ve urn into this situation so many times i can’t count them..
And I’ve been fooled so many times buy a car that appears to be in great shape, but ends up heeding wood, or the first time the nice looking seats are sat upon, and they rip due to ancient upholstery, so it needs an interior, etc.. The list goes on,
i’d hire someone who knows the Series 80 cars to look them over and get them running. That would be the very best approach to get the sellers the best value for the cars.
Greg Long