Identification, info, history needed

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  • April 3, 2015 at 1:01 pm #391323
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    Hey guys, I’m looking to gain as much information, links, direction, whatever I can get about a car in my families estate. I’ve heard lots of stories, and bits of info, but don’t really know if any of its true or accurate.

    What I do know is it’s a:

    1917 48-B 7 passenger victoria top

    car# 15431

    engine# 4183

    It came out of a chicken coop in baskets just outside of Chicago in the mid-late 60’s and was restored in the 70’s in Ohio and taken to one Pierce Arrow show in Buffalo, NY in the early 80’s and hasn’t been out since.

    Stories I’ve heard, but would like to try and verify or deny are that this is 1 of only 2 victoria top 1917 cars, the other is or was in Harrah’s collection. The other big one is that this was originally owned by R.H. Donnelley. It does have a tag inside the front door with R.H.D. stamped on it.

    I’m a hot rod/custom guy so I’ve never done any kind of research on a car like this before, so I really don’t know where to look or find this info. So any info, guidance, direction is greatly appreciated. Feel free to email me at [email protected]

    My goal is to figure out what we have, get it in running condition and get it out to some shows and enjoy it!

    April 3, 2015 at 1:35 pm #399409
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    There is an identical car in green, all factory paint and upholstery that I looked at about 10 years ago. I wasn’t smart enough to buy it then. It was a 38 hp if I remember correctly. They are great cars, lots of fun. I like the top style the car has, most collectors do not care for them. Be sure to properly sort the car before you start it or drive it. Hope to see you at a future meet. Good luck!

    April 4, 2015 at 12:09 am #412673
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    Mark,

    This is a magnificent Motor Car! The ” Vestibule Landau” top design is not very practical, but sure looks cool. I hope to be able to see you and the car soon!

    The car was at the 1982 Annual Meet in Buffalo and was judged very well, earning a 2nd in Class for Andy Vanderboegh…but the name was misspelled in the Arrow Magazine.

    You are in a great area for a Pierce-Arrow owner with the P-A Museum located at Gilmore by Kalamazoo. There are several 48 HP owners in MI. You should get to know Bob Reenders in Grand Haven.

    I am up in Whitehall, but serve as the P-A Museum Director and also for the PAS Great Lakes Region. We should get together. I’ll send a copy of the Arrow covering the 1982 Meet along with some other info and give you a 1st year membership in the Region.

    Ed is correct about getting things in order before getting on the road, but you’ll find that Pierce-Arrows were made for driving.

    Dave Stevens

    (231) 740-6610

    April 4, 2015 at 9:19 am #412674
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    This is not a “Vestibule Landau”. The term “Vestibule” implies a closed driver’s compartment (roof and glass windows).

    A Vestibule Landau would have a completely enclosed driver’s compartment, solid area over the rear doors, and a folding roof over the back seat….

    Paul

    April 4, 2015 at 1:48 pm #399411
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    Paul,

    I don’t disagree with you and thought it an odd description myself, but the appellation in the 82-3 Arrow was entered by our esteemed Editor Emeritus Bernie Weis.

    I don’t think I want to correct Bernie so I’ll leave that up to you!

    Dave

    April 4, 2015 at 7:54 pm #399412
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    Paul and David,

    On Bernie’s tables of known P-A cars, the following is listed for this motorcar: 48-B-42 X, 15431 ( Car #), B4-4183 ( Engine #), Vestibule Landau (Style / Model), Rovan, Inc. (Owner), 4921 East U. S. 12, Michigan City, IN 46360 (address).

    This particular table was last updated in 2012, but who knows if this particular info was updated at that time.

    I don’t know what it proves, save for Bernie was consistent in calling this Pierce-Arrow a Vestibule Landau, even though Paul does have a point.

    Perhaps, we need a pic of the car “all buttoned up?””

    Peter”

    April 4, 2015 at 7:58 pm #399413
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    BTW, even the GODS make errors.

    I am are that someone will ask Bernie about this matter when we see him this summer in Buffalo.

    April 4, 2015 at 9:06 pm #399414
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    Guys,

    I’m going by the Series 4 catalog published by the Pierce-Arrow Motor Car Company. It shows two versions of the Vestibule Landau, one with a flat roof over the back door; one with an arched back door. Neither car shown in the catalog comes close to resembling this car.

    Yes, I think Bernie mislabeled the photo. Perhaps he used the information supplied by the owner when they registered it for the meet.

    Paul

    April 4, 2015 at 9:27 pm #399415
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    I’ve attached a copy of a page from the Series 3 catalog…it is a little clearer than the Series 4 catalog. But, the point is the same….vestibule implies a fully enclosed driver’s compartment.

    Paul

    April 4, 2015 at 11:46 pm #412675
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    Peter,

    I am very much interested in Bernie’s tables of “known P-A cars”, could you e-mail me a copy of the list?

    Thanks,

    Bob

    April 5, 2015 at 8:54 am #399419
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    Paul,

    Thanks for the diagram.

    I figured that the Vestibule Landau would be like the Woodrow Wilson Pierce-Arrow, but with a Landau passenger section.

    Your diagram confirms my suspicions.

    Now, what the heck is the proper name of the 1917 pictured above?

    Is it in fact a Victoria Top, as described?

    I always thought that a Victoria Top had a closed passenger section.

    Peter

    April 5, 2015 at 1:30 pm #399417
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    I believe this body style has more than one name depending on the manufacturer and/or body builder. I have heard it called a Cape Landau and/or Sport Touring Landau. The picture I have enclosed is of a, circa 1923, Cadillac Type 61 Fleetwood/Don Lee custom built for actress Ann May (1901-1985) described as a “sport formal touring sedan with California top””.

    Mike & Pat

    “

    April 5, 2015 at 2:39 pm #412676
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    Looking through the Series 3 and Series 4 catalogs published by PAMCCo, my guess is that this car is a standard touring car with the optional “Victoria” top. None of these catalogs specifically show this configuration. It is interesting to note that the Series 3 catalog (page attached) shows all the open cars without any top at all, although other pages show standard, full length tops.

    I suspect that this is not a distinct body style, but rather a standard touring car body with unusual trim options….much like specifying side mount or rear mount spare tires on later cars. In the case of these pre-war cars with the cast aluminum bodies, I don’t believe the trim option for the top would have required different body castings from the standard touring car.

    April 5, 2015 at 2:42 pm #412677
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    A page from the Series 4 dealer book showing optional equipment. The “fine print” on another page says that the “standard” top on open cars was included in the price. This list shows “Victoria top for touring cars, 48-66 H.P.” as a $300 option or a “Semi-enclosed top” for $675. I assume the “semi-enclosed” top is a “California” type top.

    April 5, 2015 at 2:46 pm #399420
    Author nameAuthor names are only available to PAS members.

    Finally, a page from the 1921 Series 32 catalog showing a car with a similar configuration, listed as a “6-Passenger Touring””. I’m not sure when the 6-passenger version came along…certainly it was offered on the Series 51 chassis. It is narrower at the back than the 7-passenger version. I’ve certainly seen several Series 51 6-passenger tourings with regular tops.

    Paul”

    April 5, 2015 at 4:32 pm #412678
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    Paul,

    I thought that the “California” type top was a removable hardtop that made a touring a closed car.

    Rodney Floury has one and I attach a pic for review!

    What kind of chute do you think that Victoria top is?

    I bet it makes for either a very slow, Royal stroll or a very buffeted experience at speed.

    Peter

    April 5, 2015 at 10:30 pm #412679
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    Peter,

    I agree that the top on the car you picture is a “California” top. I suspect that the “Semi-enclosed top” shown in the Series 4 data book is referring to a top like this. $675 was a lot of money for a top in 1917….it must have been NICE!

    I can’t speak to the touring cars, but the top on my Series 5 Runabout is removable. The material is not tacked to the body anywhere. The entire top is held on by four bolts. The top can be taken off with no more effort than removing a trunk from a luggage rack.

    I suspect that the listing of tops shown in the data book is to allow the owner to have multiple tops that they could change out as the occasion or weather dictated. The dealer book indicates that the “standard” top was included in the price of the car. I would guess that the price shown on the page I posted before is for an additional top, not a substitution. The catalogs certainly talk about purchasing entire bodies and swapping them out on a single chassis as the season changes….swapping a top would be easy by comparison!!

    Paul

    April 6, 2015 at 10:38 am #399422
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    Wow, thanks for all the info guys. Very informative.

    I’m no expert on this for sure, but I’ve only heard the car referred to as a Victoria touring. It’s definitely a 7 passenger car. While the top does have a Landau arm on it, it’s not a true landau top as it’s only half a Landau. I have a horse carriage that has a true Landau top.

    According to CCCA definition a California top is: A fixed rigid top applied to a touring car replacing the regular folding top, usually with sliding glass windows for weather protection.

    A Victoria top is: A close coupled two door sedan or an enlarged coupe with a rear seat. An opera coupe. Also a four door open car with folding top over the rear seat only. Known in France as a COUPE MILORD.

    On Paul’s list of equipment prices it specifically says the Glass Partition is for semi-enclosed tops. This would make me believe this is different than the foldable second windshield this car has. Maybe something that makes it more enclosed than the windshield does?? Another reason why this would be a Victoria top and not the semi-encolsed top.

    Here’s a better picture of the top itself.

    April 6, 2015 at 2:01 pm #412680
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    Mark,

    It is a stunning and elegant automobile and perhaps the window partition behind the driver allowed for less wind to blow in when touring, thus reducing the potential for the top to act as a drogue.

    The “California” type top does have sliding glass windows in the back.

    Also, as Paul pointed out, some P-A owners took their vehicles to a P-S service station, or shipped them to Buffalo, in the fall and had the Touring Body removed and replaced with an Enclosed Body for the winter. Of course, the P-A people would store the unused body for the season.

    I guess that those individuals had “beaucoup de bucks.”

    You are doing a good deal of research and are teaching as much as you are learning.

    Peter

    April 6, 2015 at 4:06 pm #399423
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    I have a factory photo of a 1914-1915 C-3 Five Passenger Touring Car with a hardtop and curtains for the sides.There were many options for these cars as they were very expensive.Firms like Larkin of San Francisco did permanently affixed hardtops for automobiles in those days.

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