- Home
- About Us
- Join/Renew
- Member Benefits
- Member Pages
- Log In
- Help
- Museum Store
Greg I do not have the Motors manual and would greatly appreciate it if you would be able to scan it. Thanks in advance.
Dave
Rmmember, Greg’s skills as a mechanic go back many years of auto and airplane background, and he has more mechanical talent than most of the restorations shops I have visited. To be polite, I would say that the Gemmer box is beyond 98 percent of the general mechanic’s skills. It’s a very steep learning curve, if not adjusted properly(I have seen this many times!) the box will tear itself apart and become junk, no longer even a core. And I can also tell you you don’t want to try and find a good used one, they don’t exist. Virtually every box you can find is an old take out that has suffered an incorrect repair, and is also no longer a core. The cheapest and easiest solution is to remove th box from the car and inspect it on the bench. What ever you do, don’t try and adjust one of these in a car. You will not be successful. Ed.
Sorry, big finger, little phone!
Perhaps the Pierce Arrow Society needs to explore the possibility of making
new parts or come up with a fix for these boxes.This is intersting as there have been numerous 1929-1930 Pierce Arrows that have been on many tours and
there seem to be no problems.My 1929 Sport Roadster with only 24000 miles steers just fine but then this is a car with a known history from new that has always been well cared for by loving owners.I suspect many of these cars later in life were abused and driven hard.
Greg,
What issue of Motors has the Gemmer Box for our Pierces in it? My oldest is the 14th edition (1937), which covers 1934-’37. My guess is they didn’t realize for a few years there was a problem with these. The 16th edition of Dykes doesn’t cover them much, but the 18th does mention it has a new and expanded section on the steering boxes in general. None of these covers the Gemmer rebuild in great detail, only the Dykes 18th covers the adjustment and lube for the model 120, 135 and 140 Gemmers, which appear to be the worm bearing style. The Motor’s handbook mentions Gemmer had both the worm and roller and the worm and sector, and does do a credible job of walking you through the diagnosis and adjustment, but refers to Chrysler, Hupp, LaFayette, Nash, Packard, Hudson, and Ford, not Pierce. I used to have a ’34 Hupp Aerodynamic, which is why I bought the manual.
Which type box do our Pierces have?
Bob
Gemmer series 215 if my memory is correct. Used in Stutz, Pierce, Jordan, L29 Cord, and one or two other off the wall cars. They were made in both right and left hand drive. Ed.
Bill Scorah’s suggestion about the Society getting into the parts business is not new. During my decade plus as Treasurer the board was vehemently opposed to my suggestions to do just that. I thought back in the days of a very hefty cash balance it would have been a service that would benefit our membership. I was thinking primarily of things like distributor caps/rotors and rare trim items, but the majority of the board was too concerned about liability issues. Since the great recession we no longer have the cash to do such projects, but steering components would be where there should be concern about liability. Perhaps the best way to make available items that carry no such liability exposure is to encourage individuals to work with the P-A Museum in development to take advantage of their tax deductble 501( )3 Educational Foundation status. This is the case with the running board rubber, headlight lenses and 1929 manifold projects that the Museum has made available in recent years. John Wozney is the Trustee to talk to about such projects.
I do not remember the issue number of the Motors Manual that I read with the Gemmer gear box info in it. I can’t go looking for the manual, since I’m out west for the PAS Winter Board Meeting.
I do know that the earlier Motors Manuals are hard to find. I believe the one to look for covers ”29-’33. But I’m not positive about that.
Eddie, thank you for the compliments. I have learned what I know by diving into various jobs, and learning from my successes and from my mistakes. This is why I usually suggest that while some tasks can appear very difficult, they often can be accomplished if a person takes their time and figures out how thing work.
I feel that it is important for people to know their cars, and learn how they work, why they work, and how to fix them if they stop working. To put yourself at the mercy of a person or shop who’s main concern is their monthly cash-flow, rather than your car or your wallet to me is just not wise. I do understand that many people do not have an innate ‘feel’ or intuition for mechanical items. but this can be learned and developed.
And while many people will not do the actual repairs on their cars, if they at least know what is wrong, and understand the way to fix it. they will feel much more confident regarding their cars.
This is one reason that when people call me or email me regarding some issue or repair on their car, they usually get a tutorial on the subject from me, rather than a simple answer.
Greg Long
Greg,
From personal experience I want to say your tutorials have been very much appreciated. You and a few other “Professorial”” members have been fantastic at helping me better understand how these car work and made it easy for me to jump right into working on my car. I was “”warned”” how great this group of enthusiasts was. You and the others have exceeded my expectations.
Robert”
In my opinion there are people who are capable of supporting the Cars with parts and service; I see the Club’s role as a focal point for information: knowledge is king. Take all the Factory information which can be found, add to it the experience of so many knowledgeable people who have encountered these problems and made these repairs over the years. Then you have informed Owners who have the information they need to look for problems and keep their Cars safe, and you have steady demand from those people who are interested and capable of providing quality parts and repairs.
I have spent my professional life mostly supporting the operation, maintenance, and repair of obsolete equipment most of which was designed originally in the period from 1940 to the 1960s. It takes some doing but it can be done. A new generation comes along who do not have the Old Knowledge and they have to learn; a good information source makes it so much easier. I really appreciate this Forum and the ones I use for other cars.
Randy, you’re spot on.
John
I,m not sure if this will help with the Gemmer issue or not but i found four pages of info with the instructions for properly adjusting Gemmer worm and roller steering gears. in the 1973 issue #4 of the PAS services bulletin that i just bought on ebay along with sixty and seventy’s PAS stuff..Ed
Has anyone looked at a pre-1929 Pierce with Gemmer worm and roller steering system for similar construction issues or changed specs?
The old trade magazines such as MoToR indicate Pierce-Arrow began using Gemmer steering gear in 1925 in the Series 80. But that system was worm and sector (when the Series 33 was listed using a Pierce factory-built screw and nut system). For 1927 the Series 80 used Gemmer worm and roller steering (while the Series 36 changed to Gemmer worm and sector). The 1928 Series 81 and 36 continued this distinction.
A Series 80 won a prize for durability in the grueling Russian Motor Trials in 1925; perhaps that was considered as close to an ultimate evaluation as possible of Gemmer’s worm and sector system, as Packard and Lincoln were battered by the same course. Could the factory have used that result to justify adopting worm and sector on the Series 36?
I have no 1930 data handy but seem to remember Pierce-Arrow changed transmissions in the middle of the model year. Does the sample of car numbers found indicate that change also included tweaking the steering gear? If not, could the same question be asked about the late-in-the-year introduction of the Salon Models touted them as 1931 models but they have 1930 chassis wheelbases – could they have led the introduction of the 1931 steering change to Ross cam and lever steering?
Brooks
The presence of Pierce Arrow in Russia is most interesting.A large group of trucks and Series 3 automobiles were shipped there in 1915 but were Pierce Arrows sold there in the 1920’s? If so the cars were for government use.Intourist bought a bunch of Lincoln K Phaetons in 1932 and high government officials liked Packards.
There were two Soviet endurance runs in the Soviet Union in the 1920s, in 1923 and 1925, testing cars in anticipation of government purchases that never came (US companies would not extend credit terms). A Pierce-Arrow car and trucks were in the 1925 event; I cannot tell if more than one car was in the 1923 run.
I mention the 1925 Russian Trial as it appears to have offered Pierce a well-isolated test of the Series 80’s new Gemmer worm and sector steering gear – there was little chance anything going wrong would be publicized – but it won an award for durability, as did the truck. I’m hoping this will lead to something written by Talcott or Charles Sheppy about how it worked and why they changed the Series 80 to the worm and roller. All I have found is newspaper publicity by Col. Cardway that is only general information.
Brooks
I still think these issues could be related to the start of Studebaker control and the new 8, unless the knowledge out there is that ’29’s and ’30’s had no more issues than previous years.
I know next to nothing about ’29’s or the Gemmer box, but it doesn’t stop me from speculating like everyone else on 200% of what I know. I don’t think the general excuse that all cars had material defects and quality control problems really explains this. If the Gemmer box bearing races are truly “pot metal” -a hard but brittle material that might wear well but prone to brittle fracture – it seems like an avoidable poor choice of material. Obviously much superior materials and quality control for bearing races and housings were available at the time, witness the Timken roller bearings used for wheels and differentials. Even the Fafnir spring shackle ball bearings seem to be more a problem of being a bit undersized and subject to attack by corrosion rather than being brittle or defective. They also were designed with a failsafe – if the balls crumbled the shackle pin was still trapped in a hard steel washer.
The comments that other luxury cars like Cord L-29 used the same basic steering gear doesn’t strike me as a roaring endorsement.
Pierce had to rely on outside vendors like Ross and Gemmer to supply steering gears, and it seems there may have been lapses in vetting the design and testing of these with the turmoil of 1928-29. One can imagine the chaos of crashing the engineering, management and process systems of two car companies together simultaneously with developing a completely new engine and car in a very short time while the staff is wondering what the organization chart is going to be over the coming year. It would hardly be surprising if with a very short fuse Pierce put the pressure on Gemmer to deliver something fast at reduced price to please the “new broom”. Any new design has teething troubles and issues that must be worked out, this is compounded by re-organization and compressed time schedules. My speculation.
Jim
If I am correct the DuPont car around 1929-1930 used the same Gemmer steering box.In my earlier days of car collecting I met a gentleman who had the 1929 DuPont Speedster his dad had given him as a gift in 1929.He was on a VMCCA tour and had come through Santa Fe having driven the DuPont all the way from St.Louis.About two years later the car was driven again from St.Louis for our VMCCA regional tour.I never heard any comments on the steering box and this car was a performer.Perhaps alot of these boxes were fixed years ago.Pierce Arrow like DuPont was not one to cut corners.
Potmetal was used by many if not most car manufacturers in the late ’20’s through the ’40’s. The negative characteristics showed as the metal aged. As a new metal to make very attractive hardware from, as well as some mechanical parts, it was in common use because it worked well, machined well, and allowed for new innovations in design.
The speedometers and ignition/light switch housings were made of potmetal from at least ’25. The more precise items like the clock, [actually a large pocket watch] and oil pressure gauge were made of brass. In later years, the clock used a potmetal housing, and are now very difficult to find in functioning condition. Gasoline quantity gauge senders in the fuel tank, used in ’28 through ’31 had potmetal gears and housings that failed.
The same parts were used in Lincolns, Buicks, Cadilacs, Packards etc. The use of potmetal was an innovation allowing much more creative styling in handles, levers, housings etc. It was pretty much universal in the industry, regardless of maker.
The Gemmer steering gearbox for the ’25-’27 Series 80 cars used a potmetal steering shaft bushing that over the years swells and seizes the steering shaft, making the car difficult at best, to steer. Several PAS members have made replacement bushings out of brass for these cars.
The ’28 and later Gemmer gearbox used a rolling-tooth on the pitman arm, and the cage holding the balls in the bearing was made of pot metal, as well as the thrust bearings at each end of the worm-gear.
The Gemmer steering gearbox was used by many car manufacturers, including Duesenberg, although the one on the ’29 Duesenberg I looked at was HUGE, it looked like it would be ‘at home’ in a 2-ton truck or larger.
The axle shafts on many cars had issues with the metallurgy in use at the time. The rear differential and axles were made by Timken for most high-end cars of the era. Timken I’m sure did not use a sub-standard metal alloy intentionally, and I’m sure that with the poor roads of the era, broken axles were not uncommon.
If you look at the undercarriage, engine, transmission, driveline and rear differentials in our cars, and compare them to a modern equivalent, you will find that from the size of the components, they closely match a 1-ton or 1-1/2 ton truck. The difference is modern metallurgy. I know for a fact that the input shaft for the ’20’s through ’30’s pierce transmissions is the same as the New Venture 4 and 5 speed gearboxes used in 1-ton and medium-duty trucks. I use the same clutch pilot-shaft for lining up the clutch disc in the clutch when assembling a Pierce Arrow clutch as I use on a large truck clutch.
The evolution of metallurgy, carburation, ignition systems, valvetrain, combustion chamber shape and compression ratios all make the owning, researching, and restoration of out older cars fascinating. It’s what keeps me ‘hooked’ into this hobby and lifestyle.
Greg Long