I’m considering a series 80 car that looks to have the correct engine type but the engine number on the engine, 8022446, does not match the brass data plate affixed to the car. The car number is 8011241 which makes it a 1926 I believe. Can anyone tell me what year engine 8022446 is from? Also, any thoughts on how much the correct (assuming I’m right that it’s the correct engine type) but non-original engine would affect the value of the car?
Engine number 8022446 is 1927.
Thank you very much! Is there a list of engine number by year on this website (or elsewhere) that I can download to do the same check on other cars as I continue my search for the best car to buy? The identification guide on the website does the trick for the car number but I can’t find a similar tool for the engine.
This tool does not presently exist for Series 80/81. The starting engine number for each year would be necessary to construct one. I have never seen this published. If any member has this data, let me know.
Is the car a Runabout?
The number you show as a body number appears on Bernie Weis’ list of cars as an engine number for car number 8011282 owned by a John Wising in Michigan.
The highest number of an engine listed in Bernie’s list is 8022300.
After that number, the numbers start with 81 (Series 81).
The highest body number that I can find is 8022418.
How about posting a photo of the brass ID plaque?
It’s listed as a 1926 Pierce Arrow Series 80 Rumble Seat Roadster. I’ve attached photos of the brass data plate, number marked on the chassis which matches the brass data plate and number marked on the engine. I’m pretty sure the car is a 1926 but the engine is a 1927 as H. Paul Johnson Jr. stated. I’ve seen other 1927s with engine numbers very close. Would you agree with my assessment?
Chassis number which matches brass data plate
Number marked on the engine which is obviously from a later period…probably 1927
The best tool for comparing engine numbers and chassis numbers is for me, the paper roster. You can see the reported chassis number and engine numbers.
Some, like your’s has a rather obvious miss=match. But most cars have the engine number within a few digits, or up to as many as 20-30 digits higher engine number compared to the chassis.
I believe this is because the engines were assembled and tested on dynamometers, and then put into cars. If the matching numbered engine was bad for some reason, then the next higher tested engine would be installed.
And if a car developed engine problems while within the Pierce Arrow Motor Car Companie’s warrantee period, it might also receive an new engine with a hundred or so higher serial number..
Hope this helps.
Thanks, that’s good input. How would I get a copy of the paper roster to verify what year car the engine was originally installed?
You need to find a paper roster where the car is listed.
It is not listed in the 2016 PAS Roster, so the hunt is for the Roster that contains the listing.
I believe that the last listing for either of those numbers MIGHT BE the 2006 Roster where I believe that I found the listing of the 8011282 number.
Over the years engines were switched because of mechanical problems, as was mine (crankcase).
However, what confuses me is the 8011282 is listed as a body number and not the engine number.
Perhaps, at final assembly, the person who stamped the plate had too many beers during lunch.
Good luck on the hunt and I will look to see if I have a 2006 Roster in the pile of old PAS stuff that I have stored somewhere.
I am sorry if this does not clarify matters.
Apropos of Greg’s comment on numbers, here is a photo of my S/N plate.
The body number and the engine number are 1,099 digits apart.
Also, my original crankcase is reinstalled so the body and engine serial numbers now match the S/N plate.
I understand now, thanks for clarifying. Thanks again for your help. Hopefully another member has a paper copy of a roster that explains where engine 8022446 came from. I did some Packard research a while ago and there was quite a bit of factory build data available, I’m surprised that doesn’t seem to exist for a significant marque like Pierce Arrow.
BTW, I reviewed what I have and I believe that the Roster that you seek is the 2002 Roster or earlier.
I am going to my stash today and will see if I have that floating around.
I looked tbrough a few old rosters I have, 96, 98, 99 and did not see either of those numbers listed.
Not that it helps, but my 27 Series 80 numbers are on attached photo and match the car.
Thanks very much for the info and photo. At this point I’m fairly convinced that the engine is from a very late 1927. Now the only question that remains is what does this non-original engine do to the value of the car?
As a buyer, you can make the argument that the non-original engine does have a negative to the value of the car, even if it performs as it should.
Whether or not the seller agrees is another matter.
I am confident, others will chime in on my pronouncement. HA!
The reality is, the car you are considering is a Runabout, which is arguably the most valuable of the Series 80 models.
Again, I am confident, others will chime in on my pronouncement. HA! HA!
That it is a Series 80 means that there are a lot of them relative to other Series Runabouts.
What is interesting about this car is that until 2002, it was listed as having the original engine, though Bernie apparently juxtaposed the body S/N and the engine S/N.
This, even if Jim did not find a listing in the Rosters he cited.
Perhaps one of the long time PAS Gents remember the last listed PAS owner, his car, and the story behind it.
If you decide to buy the car, you may later decide to post an Emporium Ad in search of the original engine.
If that is of interest to you, the Emporium Ad, that is, keep in mind that only a small percentage of PAS members regularly visit the website and that the PRINT version of the Emporium is published quarterly.
That means you may need to be patient for any response on the engine search.
Also, you may wish to contact some of the other Series 80 Runabout owners and get their opinions on the matter.
Keep us posted and good hunting.
Seems to me that I read that some origional matching numbered engines at the factory were not installed in a matching numbered car because the engine was defective. Hence, they installed another engine with a higher number that was NOT defective.
looking in the 1975 roster (yes, I was a member then) it was not listed in the club then. the closest is 8011145 (8011169) 4 pas coupe owned by G O’Conner then Wally Ranks roadster (runabout) 8011282 with no engine number.
Thanks for digging up the 1975 roster! That’s very interesting about “car”” 8011282 not having an engine number listed. I’ll bet the car was missing the engine way back then and was re-engined at a later time.