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Jack,
Bernie’s list shows the following owners of this car, (8011282) most recent to earliest: John Wissink (2002), J. R. “Dick” Williams (1989), Century Auto Collection (??), Wallace Rank (1968) & Charles E. Burke (1965).
Boy, this one has been beaten to death, eh?
Perhaps the PAMCC S/N plate is a reproduction?
Peter
Jack,
I was curious about your S/N and Patent plate because it looks like the letters are raised (embossed) on both plates.
If you look at the photos of my S/N plate and Jim’s, they are flat with the letters reverse stenciled painted (I verified that this evening).
Ditto for my Patent plate (painted / reverse stenciled).
I believe that the car we are discussing here has a reproduction S/N and Patent plate.
Interesting, or maybe the Runabouts had a fancier set of plates.
BTW, it is not a DeLuxe / Coach thing, as my car is a DeLuxe and Jim’s is a Coach.
Now, what that has to do with anything about matching engine and body S/Ns is beyond me.
I just love doing research.
I have been called a nit picker, and that may be accurate.
Cheers,
Peter
No changes were made during John Wissink’s ownership. If still at Volo for sale, call John to find out what he knows of the previous history.
I know the car well, it is a nice solid car.
Dave Stevens
Apparently there was, at some time, a complete engine change. The Company had the foresight to apply the engine number to the right front engine mount, part of the cast aluminum crankcase, rather than the cast iron cylinder block, which was much more likely to be replaced in service than the crankcase.
My own opinion is that there is virtually NO reduction in value caused by this engine change, unlike much more recent performance cars. But it could be a negotiating point.
There is a definite upside to a 1927 engine: They were equipped with drilled rods to permit pressure lubrication of the wrist pins. Early S80s had only splash lubrication to the wrist pins. Somewhere around engine no. 807000 in mid- to late-1925, tubes were added to carry oil under pressure from the big end web to the wrist pin web. Rolls-Royce also used this technique. The drilled rods are by far the best to have. And if this is among the last 500 S80 engines, it is likely to have the aluminum rods used on S81–and perhaps the heavier and better S81 crankshaft.
In my experience, S80s usually have a sequential divergence of 30 to 100 numbers between serial (chassis) numbers and engine numbers. Through 1920, those numbers were almost always the same. Also, in my experience, there is usually a smaller divergence in large-series (32/33/36) Pierces 1921-28, presumably because the build quantities were considerably fewer than S80s.
Thus spake the Teebay,
George, you are back from the High Desert, eh?
Hi Peter: Are you saying that the letters and border on your plates are etched into the plate and the black portion is not (higher/thicker than the letters and border)? That would be an odd way to etch a plate, typically the border is always higher (unetched) and the same level as the letters in order to contain the paint/ink when they wipe it on.
Hi Dave: I did call Volo, I didn’t get much history at all.
Hi George: Thanks for the input on the improvements to the 1927 engine; that is a good thing from a reliability standpoint assuming the whole engine is a 1927 version and not just the crankcase. One thing I considered was that it could be a Frankenstein engine assembled from a 1927 case, different year block, etc. I’m not familiar with this particular engine but I know some different marques from the teens had problems with the aluminum crankcase cracking at the mounts and it isn’t uncommon for an aluminum crankcase to be replaced and everything else retained. Do you know if there are any markings or external casting differences of the engine block to determine what year(s) it came from?
Peter, I am indeed returned from (1) Rodney Flournoy’s 39th annual Modoc Tour out of Alturas, CA (64 cars, of which about 35-40% were Pierces, 140 people, 4 days, ~350 miles) in which I drove the 1918 48-B-5 touring, and (2) last weekend’s Ironstone Concours in Murphys, CA, where my 1934 production Silver Arrow was positioned tail-to-tail with Academy of Art University’s 1933 Silver Arrow concept/halo car. Now catching up on all the administrivia of life…
Jack, I’m unaware of external differences which might give a clue as to the innards of that 1927 crankcase. Very early S80s (up to about engine no. 805000) had a road draft tube emerging from the front cover/timing case cover. This was replaced by a flexible tube leading from a valve cover into the carburetor air horn, not Positive Crankcase Ventilation but an improvement in that direction. You’d have to drop the pan (a good idea if you buy the car) to determine if you have aluminum and/or drilled rods. It is indeed possible that over the past 90 years that some owner built up that engine from several S80 engines, but internal inspection is the only positive way of determining that.
Afterthought for Jack: I know of no cases of *Pierce* aluminum crankcase cracking other than (1) a major front corner collision or (2) inadvertent dropping of an entire engine from an engine hoist. I’ve seen one example of each over 22 years.
Jack, there IS an engine serial number on the cast iron block, it is located on the right front corner of the iron cylinder block. It is stamped on the vertical corner of the block, the portion closest to the right front headlight.
The number is stamped from below the head gasket down towards the aluminum crankcase. The numbers are stamped such that if you turn your head to the right so your eyes are parallel to the radiator or front of the cylinder block, then the number reads left to right, or top down.
I’m sorry about the lengthy description instead of a photo. I’m just too busy getting a car ready for Hershey to do the photo deal..
The aluminum rods are not an asset, while they do improve the engine some they are not easy to have rebabbitted. The process of rebabbiting steel rods is common, rebabbitting aluminum rods can be a significant problem.
Look at the S80 Club sedan that Merlin Smith has, it is a very late ’27, almost for sure had the aluminized engine. Check it’s serial number for the engine agains your’s.
Greg Long
George,
Thanks again for the valuable insight on this. I’ll see if I can get the seller to send me a photo of the engine number that’s on the block. In line with your comment about never hearing of an S80 crankcase cracking, I’ll bet the engine number on the block matches the engine number on the crankcase and it was just a complete engine swap. I’ll let you know what I find out.
Jack
Jack,
As with today’s etching technology on brass, one puts a stencil of the desired image on to the plate, in this case the PAMCC stuff, and then places the brass plate into an acid bath (Ferric Chloride) for a few seconds.
The acid burns out the uncovered brass and turns it black.
Then, the plate is cleaned of residual acid and the stencil removed to reveal a shiny brass image of the desired image.
Perhaps, I was incorrect about the “paint” thing, as I consider it a bit longer because there is no significant difference in elevation between the brass and the black on my S/N plate.
Again, this has nothing to do with your S/Ns.
Peter
Jack,
Apropos of Greg’s comment on the cylinder block S/N, don’t bet the ranch that they match.
When these cars overheated, it was common to crack a cylinder head or a cylinder block.
Although I NOW have the original crankcase on my 1925 Series 80, I went through three cylinder blocks on a engine rebuild a few years back (long, bad story).
Before the need for the rebuild, I am confident that the cylinder block that was on the non-matching crankcase was not the block on the original crankcase, or they would not have swapped engines in the 1930s or 1940s.
I just happen to be lucky enough that my Uncle Joe, from whose estate I bought the car, held on to the original crankcase.
Good luck with the numbers game.
Don’t be too OCD, or is that CDO (if you are really picky – alphabetical). HA!
Peter
Hi again Jack,
Ask the seller to take a piece of white chalk and rub it on the right front corner of the cylinder block, from the bottom of the head, down to the bottom of the water jacket. The white chalk will fill the recessed stamped numbers, and can be wiped off the top surface, then the number can be read.
There is no significant price penalty for a GOOD engine from a different year. BUT, the history of WHY the engine was changed, instead of rebuilding the original engine is important. AND, just having a later model engine swapped into the car does NOT mean that engine is in any better condition than the one it replaced.. The history of the engine is very important.
If the engine is of unknown mileage, unknown rebuild status, unknown service history. it is NO BETTER than the original engine if it was still running.
Since it is no longer the original engine, that will eliminate SOME buyers, who want only low mileage, unmolested cars. But for someone who wants to drive the car and have a lot of fun, the engine serial number is irrelevant.
But again do not assume the one year newer engine is in anyway a low miles, better condition engine, just because it is only 89 years old instead of 90 years old.. Miles and rebuild status are the deciding factors.
Greg Long
Just heard back from the gentleman at Volo, there is NO number on the engine block! He said that there is a flat spot near right front corner of the cylinder block where you would expect to see an engine number but nothing is marked. I wouldn’t have been surprised if the numbers were illegible but for nothing to be marked really makes me wonder. Puzzling.
Jack,
Call John Wissink, the owner of the car. He summers in Michigan and winters in Florida. 941-685-0321 He has a lot of cars, falling in and out of love with them. We couldn’t get him enthused about joining the Society and eventually dropped out. I told him to advertise in the Emporium, but he’s had good luck with Volo selling other cars in the past
The car has been at a number of PAS events in Michigan over the last dozen years, but not with John. Our friend Ryan DeVries has shown & toured the car for him. Ryan may have some historical information as he is a very good restorer of brass & nickel cars. Ryan shop is (616) 447-2921, cell is 616-406-6416.
If you call either, tell them I referred you. I may likely see Ryan next week at Hershey, but I have a hectic schedule as does he.
If you want a reliable 80 roadster to drive, this is a very nice older restoration car. If it was a touring, I’d be after it. Alas, our Labrador Sandy wants a cushy seat and Diana won’t share.
Dave Stevens
231-740-6610
Jack, Dave’s information immediately above is incredibly valuable and is worth many times your current year’s membership. It truly demonstrates the value of single-marque-club membership.
Dave, thanks VERY much for providing this info.
Hi Dave,
Thanks again for the excellent advice. I will reach out to both gentleman mid-next week. That’s funny that you mentioned that it’s not a Touring…a Touring is what I was really most interested in! I’ll let you know how it goes.
Cheers,
Jack
Hello Jack: Have you crawled into a Series 80 roadster/runabout yet? The reason I ask is that if you are over 6 feet tall, you might find the car a bit ‘tight’ for comfort.
On the plus side, the Series 80’s are a very nimble Pierce Arrow, have excellent brakes, and are fairly simple in design.
I remember looking at a 1933 Pierce that had been carefully disassembled, all the dashboard parts, interior trim, handles etc etc replated and put in plastic bags. There were more parts in that car from the front seat forward than an entire Series 80 car. The Series 80 is a very good car, and once set up right is quite capable to keep up with most other Pierce Arrow cars on a tour, with some exceptions of course..
If you have not driven one, or sat in one, I’d recommend it prior to serious purchasing negotiations.
Greg Long
Jack: feel free to email or telephone me regarding this car or the Series 80 in general.
Hi Greg,
Thanks for the heads up. No, I haven’t tried a Series 80 on for size yet and I definitely would do so before purchasing. I’m not a big guy so the tight cockpit shouldn’t be a problem. I have heard very good things about the 80, your confirmation of this is much appreciated!
Jack
Jack,
I just looked at each of the Series 80 P-A cars offer by VOLO and each will need a good deal of work to bring them both up to snuff and to be correct.
Obviously, the price reflects the work that needs to be done.
The dark red one also has a non original windshield and top, and I seem to recall some PAS person writing about that car being (?) re-bodied or something weird.
Good hunting on your search.
BTW, Wayne Hancock is selling his IMMACULATE black and vermillion Series 80 Runabout at Hershey.
The price is about twice what VOLO is asking for the more expensive of the two cars they offer, but Wayne’s car is a Weis Award winning car and is FANTASTIC!
Check out the photo of Wayne’s car on this website, Past Meets section.
Peter