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The subject and frustration of K-S gas gauge has been discussed before, but I would be curious to hear of experiences of those whose gauge works (as opposed to the ones who have put the WD-40 red stick in the glass tube).
Does anyone have a gauge that can hold its reading for weeks or months? It seems like this gauge relied on cars that were driven regularly in order to slosh the fuel around to keep air in the air chamber sending unit, unless you get an absolutely perfect air tight connection. I am wondering if that is achievable before I jump through hoops chasing it.
I am wondering if the common experience is that the gauge always reads low if the car has been sitting for a while, but after a few days of driving on a tour will come to its senses.
The position of the two air trays that bubble the replacement air down to the air chamber in the tank sending unit are placed such that I suspect there won’t be as much air bubble action when the tank is between 1/2 and 2/3 full, and getting the thing working favors filling the tank and then not re-filling until less than an 1/8 tank if you dare let it go that low with a gauge you don’t believe.
I have made my first run at restoring mine. I have repaired the head unit, cleaned the sending unit, and to try it out before installing it I put the sending unit in a jerry can of gas to see if I can get an airtight connection. So far, the calibration looks right – empty to full reads 25 gallons – but the reading is dropping about 2 gallons/day so not airtight yet. I keep the jerry can outside of the garage so it gets hit by the Nevada sun in the day and cools off at night. That changes the reading about 5 gallons between morning and early evening. Once immersed in the gas I think it is effected by the fuel vapor pressure change with temperature which shouldn’t be a big problem when it is in the car and the tank isn’t being baked in the sun.
I have played around with the air tray/bubble tubes by pulling the sending unit up and down in the jerry can to see if it is working and restores the reading. I think it is working but no doubt it takes a lot of sloshing around in the tank to restore the air in the tank chamber. Hence, my curiosity about others experiences.
Thanks, Jim
Jim,
I have had a functioning system in my car for 7 years now. When I bought my 1931 the system was not working. The previous owner told me about running out of gas twice with the car and recommended that I fill the car every 100 miles. The thought of EVER pushing a Pierce to the corner gas station wasn’t appealing to me!
When I took my car apart, the king seeley sending unit was damaged. I contacted Atwater Kent and they offered a rebuilding service or could make a brand new unit if needed. I was able to rework and clean my dash unit and bought a new vapor tube, fitting and fluid kit from a early Ford V8 parts supplier.
Jim, you are correct in that getting ALL line connections absolutely tight is key to a functioning and reliable system. I intended on writing an article for the club sometime over the next year when I rebuild a similar system in one of my Oaklands. I would be happy to share a few tricks on sealing the lines with you over the phone if you would like to call me some evening.
Your Questions:
When I first rebuilt my system, the gauge would drop no more than a couple of gallons if the car sat for a week or more. The gauge would typically recover after going down the road less than five miles. Seven years later, the gauge will drop five gallons if sitting more than a week, but recover in the same driving distance.
I am no chemist, but I attribute the change to the dilution of the gauge fluid with exposure to sunlight and age. I went to a show last year and the sun hit the gauge for a period of several hours. When I got back in the car, the fluid was almost clear and that gauge lost some of its level holding ability and accuracy starting the following week. I will test this theory this fall when I replace the fluid in the dash unit/gauge.
Is this system great? No, the electric gauge system is better, but seven years isn’t a bad run with a king seeley system and replacing the fluid in the dash/gauge unit isn’t difficult to do.
I hope this information helps a bit.
John
Interesting post Mr Dillman-I look forward to that read.
John
John, thank you for the information, it is very helpful and I will give you a call. I am not sure if I have it sealed yet or not in my off-vehicle test. I thought it was still leaking two days ago when it dropped from 17 to 10 gallons from evening to morning without touching or moving anything, but rose back up to 17 again this evening – the variation in heat on the jerry can and unknown gremlins makes it difficult to tell. I have to be patient and let it go up and down a few more days, but suspect it still is leaking. I tested the head unit by itself by sealing the copper at the sending unit end and over the course of several hours it rose and fell just sitting in the garage. Attached are some pictures. The smart thing to have done would have been to get new tube/capillary/reservoir assembly but I like the DIY challenge and took a shot at restoring the original. I soldered a new capillary to the glass tube and it seems to be okay. If I still have a leak I think it is at the sending unit connection.
No doubt it will be important to have a working trip odometer!
Thanks again, Jim
I took it as a challenge to get the King-Seeley Hydrostatic gauge to work in the 1931, because, I also had heard how difficult it is to get it to work. But….it can be done. Time, patience, resourcefulness will be required. I was successful in getting mine to work in my car.
There have been several good articles in the PASB’s over the years. If you are interested, let me know and I can send you one if you want to read up on these.
There are several key areas:
1. The sender unit in the fuel tank, which is a series of brass tubes and cups soldered together must be intact and not clogged up with corrosion flakes, or coated with gas tank sealant coating. Lots of times, vibration or corrosion has caused the sender unit to come apart. If you are lucky, it can be cleaned and resoldered, or even replaced as others have pointed out, these are still available.
2. You need the fittings and fine copper tubing that is not crimped and the fittings tight with a thin seal of teflon tape at both ends over the threads of the fittings. If you cut the teflon tape to a narrow width, it will not show when the fitting has been tightened. The copper tubing must be routed carefully so that it will not get pinched, kinked, or too close to the hot exhaust system. Never blow through the tubing with compressed air, especially with the tubing hooked up to the gauge or the sender. An air-tight system is absolutely essential to having a working gauge.
3. The King-Seeley gauge has to be intact, especially the joint between the glass tube and the base of the gauge. There can be NO leaks in the system or it will NOT work. The gauge must be thoroughly cleaned out to remove dust, debris, and residue. Isopropyl alcohol works good with some Q-tips and pipe cleaners for cleaning these out.
4. Lastly, and ironically, I found that the weakest link of this system is the fluid as John points out. First of all, the red color does not stay very long. It tends to fade through pink, and then to clear…making it difficult to read the gauge. It is sensitive to sunlight, which apparently causes decay of the dye. The fluid, much denser than water, is also highly corrosive and if it leaks out, it will chemically attack the face of your gauge and the back of the instrument panel. This is where you have to be sure that the indicator liquid does not leak out through the joint between the glass tube and the metal fitting. Getting the fluid into the glass tube in the fuel gauge without dripping it onto the gauge face takes a steady hand and a lot of patience. A syringe works well here. Getting the right amount of fluid into the gauge is how you “calibrate” the gauge. I found that it was better to slightly overfill the tube, then remove tiny amounts of excess fluid with a toothpick soaking up fluid at the top of the tube.
I have talked to several people who have said that the red fluid sold by the Ford parts dealers lasts a little long and keeps the deep red color longer.
I was actually impressed that once set up correctly, and calibrated with leak-free tubing and a solid sender unit, the King-Seeley gauge works fairly accurately. However, you have to be prepared to change the fluid when it fades, and watch for leaks, especially at the base of the glass tube. As John commented, if you drive the car regularly, the system re-balances itself fairly well.
The King-Seeley sender, the fittings, the copper tubing, and the red fluid are all available, listed in our Parts and Services Directory. If your gauge needs rebuilding, there are parts available for that, too, including several competent people to restore the face of the gauge……(hopefully not after the red fluid has attacked the face of the gauge!) There’s always the trip odometer!
Getting the K-S Telegage to work properly is an adventure, and you will get a little pride of accomplishment from getting it to work, knowing that this is the way that it was when it left the factory. However, it is not a robust system, and will take some time to maintain and refresh. It is up to you as the owner. A float type sending unit, and a matching gauge are much more reliable….but not correct, especially if you are going to do a lot of touring. It is totally up to you what goals that you have for your car. If you want to show your car, know going in that a modern gauge in the dash is an automatic deduction. However, done properly, this is a reversible change and the gauges could be swapped at a later date.
Happy Motoring,
Chris Diekman
Chris thanks for responding. I re-soldered the cone fittings pushing the new tubing a little past the end to get solder in both ends as John suggested. I used a dremel conical cutting bit to cut through the edge of the fittings to make a fresh seat and followed up with Teflon tape as you suggest.
I was trying to keep my test jerry can outside to avoid fumes, but realized – duh – I have 4 cars with carburetors and open ventilated gas tanks in the garage – the 5 gallon jerry can with tiny holes wasn’t going to be an additional hazard. I have it inside the garage now and will see how it goes this week.
Thanks again! Jim
I tried my very best to get the unit working . It read correctly a short time. The gauge reading comes and goes as it feels like it . There doesn’t seem to be any consistency in how it reads. Others have told me they work on them routinely and have no problems . Next year I’m going to attempt to try to fix both my 32 and my 35 so they read correctly . I would be interested in anybody else who has pointers or experience with these units . Ed.
The problems of the red dye in the KS fluid seems to be a big problem. Talking with John Dillman, he told me that the fluid on his PA lost most of its color after getting hit for one day by the sun. He is thinking of making a little cover to put over the gauge when not being used.
My wife is in the picture framing business, they routinely use 99% UV blocking conservation glass to drastically cut fading for photos and artwork. I just did a quick internet search and the bottom line is that UV blocking isn’t available in convex glass used for instruments. The thought occurs to put UV blocking film on the gauge glass. I don’t know that the KS dye fading is from UV, but seems likely.
Might be time for an experiment.
Jim
My 35 temp gauge is clear now……no trace of red but it is easy to read. I don’t want to mess with it. You can get the fluid from the Ford guys, as I did. It has not faded in three years, and looks like new. Lately my gauge for the gas seems to read low all the time. I just put gas in every time I drive home, and thus I don’t run out of gas. I spent at least 10 hours fixing it and still no luck.