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A few months back I bought a super nice looking ’32. Took it for a test drive and it ran nice with no engine noise but we did hear a little sounds from the transmission. The last few owners had never really driven the car over the couple decades. So I decided to play it safe and drop the pan, inspect the sound in the trans. Better safe than sorry. So glad that it was done. The bottom end was living on borrowed time. Here is a picture of the #1 rod Babbitt. So from a piece of mind, I’ll just take a peak to a serious project. All new rods, SS valves, timing chain, rings, hone, rebuild the carb, fuel pump kit, gaskets set and complete detail I’ll be ready to tour with the car this summer. The last few owners never had it apart and I’m sure they never suspected any issues since it ran so well.
# 1 rod
When I pulled the trans it had some major issues from sitting for decades
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After a new gear, bushing and inspection it is ready for a few more decades.
Try another picture of the rod…Living on borrowed time. I think one more good hill it would have let go.
Wondering what the cost is for this rebuild. I have been shocked at the cost for parts and labor for classic cars compared to my recent experience on a motor for my 1947 Dodge truck. I understand the big difference in the cost of parts due to limited availability but the exponential cost increase for labor really hit me between the eyes! Fortunately my machine shop views line boring a block as the same process whether the block is out of a ’32 Pierce or a ’79 Dodge 360 ( the motor in my truck).
Hi Jim, sadly what you are dealing with is very common. Most cars have little mileage on them because they are not reliable. Most of the time it’s because the owners refuse to correctly fix problems. Many restorations end up being partial cosmetic repairs. Once properly serviced and sorted, which can take a long time, turn into lots of work, and a strain on ones check book, the car should offer endless hours of enjoyment. My 32 series 54 drives great, and I’m sure you will be happy with yours. It’s a great body style. Post more photos please, and a few of the entire car would be fun also. My best, Ed
Jim Palmer: first I hope you do not let your machine shop LINE BORE the ENGINE BLOCK !! One member had a machine shop do this and the engine block was junk.. I think a very expensive set of custom made main bearing shells were made to save the engine.
The problem is that true machinists that understand what must be done and what must NOT be done are getting scarce. Many ‘newer’ machine shops or engine rebuilders have never worked with poured-babbit rod bearings or poured-babbit main bearing shells that must be machined in the engine block.
What has become common in more modern machine shops, and engine rebuilding shops is to restore the main bearing saddles in an engine block, allowing another life to the crankcase. This procedure is rarely if ever needed on an antique engine. And if done wrong, there often are no replacement engine blocks available.
The work done on these older engines is time consuming, and if a man is in business, trying to pay his mortgage, his business overhead etc.. The many hours needed to rebuilt each part of an antique engine instead of just buying off-the-shelf new or rebuilt parts, starts to add up quickly..
For example: a rebuilt water pump for just about any engine made after 1960 can be purchased either new or rebuilt for under $60. To rebuild a water pump on most Pierce Arrow engines runs from $500-$900. Everything must be made for the rebuild, and machined to work.. There are no rebuild kits made in China or Mexico for $19.95 that take an hour to install. Its all about the talent and experience of the machinist who is restoring the part.
Greg Long
Fortunately, my machine shop has been around for a number of years and has experience rebuilding motors with poured bearings. As noted in my original post the cost of replacement parts is excessive (your water pump cost comparison is a good one)if they are available and out of sight if a replacement has to be hand crafted. Given the expense of an engine rebuild, I am loathe to undertake such a project anymore and will focus my search on cars where there is good evidence of engine reliability. This pretty much rules out auctions. Of course there are still risks that all will not be well even with a lot of due diligence. I speak from past experience and could write a book on what not to do when restoring old cars and trucks. My worst encounter was engaging a well known (and allegedly respected) classic engine re-builder who had the talent and experience required to do the job. His named was always uttered in hushed, reverent tones by classic car club members who considered it a privilege that they the unworthy had been allowed to kiss his ring or fondle the hem of his garment. He always had a large backlog of pending work and was quick to inform potential customers how fortunate they would be if he chose to undertake their project and quickly noted his work was expensive. I felt blessed when after two years of seeking his help, my rebuild was accepted. Two more years passed before I was informed the work had been completed and I had two weeks to come pick up the engine. Fast forwarding to five years later and living in another state, I proceeded to install the motor only to learn that very little of the work (documented with detailed receipts)had been performed. Shortly thereafter I sold the car and motor in disgust.The moral of this tale: you don’t always get what you pay for.
I agree that engine work has really become expensive, not to mention the rebuilding of the accessories and attachments to such an engine.
I’ve bought and sold a lot of cars, and should have learned my lesson, but within the last couple of years bought two cars (non-Pierce) that seemed to be GREAT deals. Neither were running. The first one started, I thought the gas tank was empty but had traces of old, bad, gas, gummed up valves, locking them up and making pretzels out of pushrods. Big bucks. The second, I knew it needed engine work, but wasn’t quite prepared for how much, from fan hub to back of transmission, everything needed rebuild. This one, not real expensive, but time consuming, as marque specialist working on it is trading me for upholstery work.
It’s so hard to judge a car’s mechanical condition, but one needs to at least hear it run and drive it, and be comfortable there are no major issues. If not, there should be a MAJOR discount in acquisition price, assume the worst.
I know of a Packard V-12 that’s having a hard time finding a new home, because last time it was started, there was exhaust smoke and a knock in the engine.
Fun stuff…..
Lesson I learned from this: either a credible story hopefully with receipts documenting engine-transmission-mechanical work at some time in the past are available; alternatively a “heavy” inspection; i.e. oil pan off for a look; or else a suitably discounted price.
It is entirely possible to own a nice car for years, hardly ever drive it, and be completely unaware of the internal condition of things. I’m OK with that until we start talking purchase price.
I’m with you Randy with respect to receipts and inspection or a significant drop in price. You’re right on with people owning cars who are unaware of the car’s internal condition. I bought a Packard needing a total restoration and after getting it home learned that the original motor had been replaced with a much later Packard engine. Fortunately, the owner was a gentleman and he offered to refund my money or fund the purchase of a replacement motor. He had owned the car for 10 years and was unaware of the problem.
For myself, I look for cars needing mechanical work.. The reason? because i do most of my own mechanical work. There are certain machining processes that I do not have the [expensive] machine to do the work myself in my own shop. but I know of several machine shops that can do what ever work I cannot do.
I stay far away as possible from any body and paint work. It is a much bigger job that an engine or transmission rebuild, and is labor intensive, and the cost of paint and materials has gone up 500%-or more over the last 10 years.. I prefer to buy a car that has had the paint and body work done.
I’m in the same frame of mind regarding interior work.. it requites machines and skills that I do not have.. Nor do I want to try to learn them..
Third item is the chrome or nickel plating. This too is a job requiring specialized equipment, and chemical solutions, and knowledge and skills I don’t have. Another job that has to be sent out to an outside source.
So, for me, a car like the one that Jim bought with the engine needing work, is ideal.. wonderful paint, and an excellent interior and very nice chrome plating.
Going through the engine will turn this car into a wonderful, great looking and great driving car. And it should be able to keep up with most freeway traffic, and not be a rolling road block. And, with the engine having been done personally, Jim will not have to be concerned about really driving the car hard if he wishes to..
Back almost 30 years ago I was talking with a fellow Pierce Arrow Society member about a car that was for sale. The car was advertised as having a rebuilt engine.. My PAS friend looked at me and asked: Did you, or I rebuild the engine? IF NOT, then consider the car to need it’s engine to be rebuilt.. Or, if you watched the engine go through it’s rebuild process, that would be almost as good. Otherwise it must be at least torn down and put back together after a thorough inspection, .
That was very sound advise, and over the years it has proven to be nearly 100% accurate..
Greg Long
Greg- I totally agree with you last post. The cost of the chrome, paint and interior alone would be more than I paid for the car. Unless I know the person that rebuilt an engine I assume it will need some work. I’ve seen some rebuilds that were nothing more than a rattled can and 50w oil to quiet down the bottom end. The car is beautiful with nothing missing and we all know how hard and expensive it can be to find something for one of these. on the test drive the car drove great, accelerated well and was totally quiet. I’m sure the last few owners were confident in driving it and never looked inside the engine. So I was comfortable that it all probability that nothing major was wrong.
At 85 years old I consider a timing chain, SS valves, valve job, rings, hone and gaskets to be normal maintenance. Once back together it will be good to go for a long time.
The main reason I dropped the pan was to gauge where things were at. This saved a ton of money. It was totally quiet but wanted to be safe. The rod was ready to spit out the rest of the babbitt. Fixing it now was simple since the crank is smooth and round on all 8. Pound a rod against the crank and it goes from a $2k maintenance to at least $20k for a full rebuild.
I put a few thousand miles a year on all of my cars and know I know the Pierce will be ready to do it with no problem. I just need to put the engine back together then rebuild the fuel pump, check the rear end, then…..Oh yeah I want to detail the shocks, they are grungy from leaking s bit, clean the grease from the suspension joints. It never ends and that is what i enjoy.
Ed- here are a few more photos of the ugly stuff, then I’ll post a few showing why I bought it.
Chipped gear in the transmission
This was inside the case, an extra snap ring. Pretty sure this is what ate the gear.
The reason I bought the car…..
They are great cars, yours looks great. You can probably buy a used transmission for less money than making a gear.
I don’t recognize your car. Do you have any history on it? Usually the cars have been in the club sometime in the past. Do you know who the previous owners were? I like it with the rear mounted spare. It’s possible to make a new single gear, but if the cluster shaft has any damage on it, you’re only buying time.
Ed-The car has been owned by Club members for decades. Last months arrow has a picture of it. The transmission is back in and it sounds good. Got lucky and a club member had a parts transmission and it had what I needed.