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Hey everyone!
I’m on the hunt for a prewar car in the next few years (finances aren’t quite there yet), even my wife likes the idea! I’ve mostly been looking at “Derby” Bentleys (1930s, the first Bentleys built after Rolls-Royce acquired them) as I’ve been an RROC member for a few years, and have just had more access to the cars and the people, and from lots of reading it seems like a late Derby will do what I want to do, and are generally priced where I can at least comprehend it.
But I also still have a soft spot for American cars of the era, and after a little discussion over on the AACA forums it seems like Pierce Arrow would likely also be a solid choice, and I’m a sucker for a big V12 (though I’m not saying I wouldn’t take an 8cyl car if the right one came up)
So I figured I’d join PAS and see what I can learn, would love to get a chance to interact with the cars some
I have 2 kids currently 8 and 11 and I’d really like to get something soon enough that they can still enjoy it so hoping to get something in <5 years. Obviously need a sedan or at least a coupe with 4 real seats (i.e. I don’t want a “rumble seat” car). I actually kind of like some of the 7 passenger sedans since it would give us extra room when we have family staying with us etc.
I’m always most interested in driving cars, not showing them, or having a “collection” so part of why I’m focusing on later cars is having something that could reasonably be driven longer distances, maintain “modern” speeds (yes, I know braking, handling etc aren’t going to be modern), etc. A 36+ car with factory overdrive is pretty intriguing. So I’m mostly here for some general introduction and ideas of what to look for and avoid.
Some specific questions I do have though
1) How is the relative performance of the 8 vs the 12 in an otherwise similar car? I gather the 12s perform pretty well (and the 24hr speed record thing is really cool) but haven’t seen much about the 8. I know neither will have quick acceleration by modern standards, but ability to hold speed, gearing etc is important.
For reference, the Bentleys I’m considering in the earlier cars were geared to cruise at 70mph at 3,500rpm, though as “continental” touring became more common Bentley revised the gearing for 90mph at 3,500rpm “with reasonable economy” (not sure what their definition of “reasonable” was, but, that’s what they said). From what I’ve read elsewhere, the 12 can probably do that (if geared properly) without a problem… Will the 8s be able to? Not that I’m going to be “cruising” at 90 all that often, but the idea of that being a design parameter is reassuring.
2) While I’d imagine the 12 is more maintenance intensive than the 8, are there any specific downfalls of the 12 other than the basic added complexity of 4 extra cylinders? Are the 12s less robust in any way? Are the parts substantially harder to source? etc.
For a little added context: This would be my first pre-war car, but I do have experience with other older cars, I have a 55 Jaguar, and 59 MGA Race car, and have worked quite a bit on C2 Corvettes as both my dad and brother have one. I do mostly my own mechanical work, and have a degree in mechanical engineering with automotive specialty. I have a pretty well equipped 2,000sqft garage, with a 2 post lift, etc so I’m generally not too intimidated by mechanical work, though I do want to start with a car that’s a “solid driver” not a full restoration. I’m also reasonably comfortable with interior work. I have never done body or paint work.
Hi Brandon,
Below is some information on the Pierce-Arrow 12 and a comparison of the 1936 Pierce-Arrow with some other luxury makes. I am not a Pierce 8 owner, so hopefully some other members will provide answers to your questions. The ’36-’38 Pierce-Arrows are generally regarded as the best driving P-As, although earlier ones are still very nice cars and fun to drive. In any given year, Pierce-Arrow was at the top of the field.
The 8 cylinder engines started at 125 horsepower in 1929 and ended at 150 horsepower in 1938. There was a 115 hp model in 1930. There were 3 displacements, 340 cu. in., 366 cu in. and 385 cu.in. The chart below lists the various 12 cylinder versions. The 12s do have more power, but the 8s are capable cars.
I hope this helps you make a decision. While I may be biased, I highly recommend Pierce-Arrow.
Below is a description of the evolution of the Pierce-Arrow 8 cylinder engine from one of our Service Bulletins.
Hi Brandon, tagging on to what Dave said, I have a 1934 840A and a 1931 Model 42. Both have the 385ci engines. I just returned from the annual PA meet where we did a 208 mile tour through the back roads of the Ozarks. Lots of hills and curves. Several steep 3-4 mile climbs on the tour. The 8 cylinder was more than enough even though these cars are heavy. One consideration is braking. My ‘31 has straight mechanical brakes while the ‘34 has power assisted braking. I sure appreciated the power assist in the Ozarks. While I haven’t driven a 12 cylinder yet, I purchased a ‘34 1240A, and should receive it late next week. Once I have it I can give you a better sense of the 12 vs the 8. I’m happy to discuss my experience if it would help you. Feel free to look me up in the directory. Best of luck.
Thanks for the responses, very helpful!
The Pierce really does win the “spec” comparison in pretty much everything except the Cadillac having independent front suspension.
Can someone explain how “freewheeling” works? I think I understand the concept, but I’ve never encountered in in practice before.
Interesting regarding the mechanical brakes, Rolls Royce still used a hybrid hydraulic/mechanical into the 60s. It’s a bizarre system wherein the hydraulic cylinders are only driven by a transmission servo. The rear brakes are mechanical and hydraulic, fronts are hydraulic only. RR just didn’t quite trust these new fangled hydraulic systems yet. It’s a really weird system but actually works very well once properly set up (which since it’s such a weird system, many people don’t know how to set it up and people think the cars have bad brakes “that’s just how they are”)
I’ve heard a lot of people are scared of the 12s due to being much more expensive to maintain/rebuild. What’s the concern here? I of course understand that there is extra complexity to a 12cyl vs an 8cyl but people are saying things like <$20k to rebuild an 8 vs over $75k to rebuild a 12, and I’m kind of lost on that…
Think of freewheeling as having 2 second gears and 2 third gears. One of each gear is like any transmission we know that when the foot is removed from the accelerator the engine will lug down the rpm. In freewheeling, when the foot is removed from the accelerator the transmission is not engaged to the engine and you coast (just as if you had the clutch pushed in). Freewheeling works fine on level ground but can be dangerous on hilly roads as your much more dependent on the brakes to control speed.
Ok, thanks, I was thinking it might be like a bicycle where when you stop applying power, it just coasts.. which sounds like what it is.
But there is also a way to not freewheel? Is it controlled by a switch or how is it eneabled/disabled?
On my ‘31 there are 2 positions for the shifter in both 2nd and 3rd gear, the 1st is freewheeling , the 2nd is normal. On my ‘34, there is a push/pull cable attached to a lever on the transmission which selects normal or freewheeling. I don’t know when Pierce switched over.
OK that’s good to know regarding the freewheeling. When I originally read about that “feature” I was not a fan, for exactly the reason you mention of giving up engine braking seeming like a downside, but if it can be disabled, then it’s a non-issue, and perhaps an actual benefit!
Regarding developments to the V12 engine as shown above, how different were the later Seagrave 531ci engines? I know some/all had dual ignition systems which would require unique heads, but, for instance, could a 462 block be bored the extra .25″ to get the 531 displacement, or were the Seagrave blocks a different casting etc? I have heard the actual Seagrave engines are even harder to get parts for than the PA car engines, just curious if the car engines can benefit from the later developments, or if they’re essentially a new engine at some point along the way.
On my 35 the freewheeling has the push pull handle, the “normal” position is all the way in and freewheeling, pulled out is what we would consider normal now, transmission always engaged. The freewheeling is kinda nice driving around town, less shifting, just have to remember to dump the clutch coming to a stop.
33-35 has the Stewart Warner power mechanical brake that Rolls also used. It is mounted on the back of the transmission activated by driveshaft torque via a wet clutch. 36-38 used a more conventional vacuum booster on the mechanical brakes to accommodate an overdrive.
Something to bear in mind is Pierce was still using babbitt connecting rod bearings which are prone to failure, particularly in later year rebuilds. Modification to more modern steel backed inserts generally a good idea if you are planning to do long distance driving.
I see crazy numbers for rebuilding any big prewar engine, 8 or twelve.
Thanks for the comment there, the freewheeling thing is really interesting.
I had read something about the connecting rod bearing issues. Need to research that a bit more.
Adding to Jim’s comments, for ’36-38 things get more interesting with the Borg-Warner overdrive! When the overdrive is engaged so is freewheeling and therefore no engine brake. In stop & go traffic, hilly terrain or under 40 MPH driving, we leave the O/D – freewheeling disengaged. One feature when engaged you can shift from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 without the clutch. O/D kicks in above 40 MPH, just take your foot off the gas and you’ll feel the revs drop (my understanding is by 1/3), if you slow below 40 the O/D will kick out. Another fun fact most of us only do once is the engine must be under load (or accelerating) in order to disengage the O/D – freewheeling. This makes for a white knuckle “thrill” if you’re in O/D and find yourself on a long hill with a stop sign at the bottom and zero benefit of engine braking; your choice is drag the brakes until they fade or speed up to pull out the O/D handle to derive some engine brake.
Another interesting feature on these cars is Bendix Startix automatic starting, some people use it as designed and others disconnect it altogether. Ours remains as-is from Buffalo; turning the key from the 12:00 position to 1:00 will start the car, if it stalls – it will automatically restart. Once running, you can opt to turn the key counterclockwise from 1:00 to 11:00 – this will disengage the Startix and there is no further concern.
These are but just a few reasons to own a Pierce-Arrow; you’ll get none of this driving excitement from a Corvette or a Porsche.
The OD engagement sounds interesting, so if I’m reading you correctly, when the OD is turned on, the car will automatically engage/disengage the OD when speed allows?
I had assumed this was more like the OD units in some (relatively) newer cars where where it works sort of like a 2 speed rear axle, OD engaged and you get higher gearing in, usually 2-4 (in a 4 speed transmission), but it’s either on or off. My dad’s 60 Austin Healey has the 4 speed with OD, but IIRC that type of OD was around quite a while before then.
Rolls-Royce/Bentley were a bit ahead of their time, for their factory OD cars, they just made 4th gear an OD ratio rather than 1:1 so basically like a newer 5 speed, just missing a gear..
One of the things I like about the prewar period is that these things weren’t “standardized” yet so all the manufacturers were sort of experimenting with how to solve the same problems in different ways. As an engineer and history enthusiast it’s really fascinating for me.
This might be a dumb question, but do the 36-8 cars still have things like hand throttle, manually adjusted timing, richness, etc? I always enjoy that part with the prewar cars I’ve driven.
The Borg Warner overdrive is completely mechanical, the kick-in & out are regulated by the speed of the driveshaft.
Yes, among the dash knobs on a ’36-8 are two marked T and S – throttle and spark. There is no manual choke, though; it’s automatic.