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    in addition to the fact that we cannot load certain photos, or videos, or links for that matter, on this website, without manipulating them somehow, it would appear that our PAS roster is now on the fritz as well.

    if you are trying to find a member by state, it only loads one name…I have been informed that half the roster is now missing names of members of other states as well…

    While this may be only a temporary thing, this is another example of why we need a new website.



    Hi Curtiss, your enthusiasm for a new website is clear. At the Winter Mini Meet in Branson MO, Feb 28-Mar 3, the current web presence will be a priority topic.

    Our website is a powerful tool for the membership. It was developed by software specialists who happen to be, and currently are still, members of the PAS. The website they developed has been, and is, an amazing asset to the club. We intend to maintain all current functions, while weighing the need for any change to keep pace with current technology and methods. Of course, with cost in mind for any upgrades.

    I suggest we all allow the current due diligence to take place. Your patience is appreciated.



    I just accessed the Roster and did a search for members in Oregon. All members were listed. I don’t see a problem.


    John: I am very glad to hear the website will be a priority topic at the winter meet.

    Please understand that I view this website as a great accomplishment for what was available 20 years ago, it has served it’s purpose in that time.

    But times are changing faster than some us are willing to accept. If the PAS is serious about recruiting newer, younger members into the fold, then we must do so with a modern, fully functioning website, with all the bells and whistles attached.

    Yes, this is an amazing website, and I do not wish to see it come down either, but if we can take this website and incorporate it’s features into the vision of the new website, then we can be proud of what can be accomplished with it.

    If the Pierce-Arrow Society wants to stay ahead of the game, then we need to set an example of what the other car clubs out there should be following…a modern website that can encompass both the old, and new visions, of yesterday and today.

    I am patiently awaiting the outcome, but every once in a while I feel we need to “rally the troops again”” to get this done.

    No offense is meant to anyone in my rants…


    Hi Curtiss, you’ve mostly described the scope of our current due diligence. Instead of waiting the outcome, I invite you to actively participate in the process by being on a committee to consider next steps. I hope you plan to attend Branson and can remain active on the committee until a final work product is implemented.

    Before then, I’m interested in viewing a few club websites that you consider modern, fully functional, and on par with what you would expect for the PAS. Let us know. It would be helpful for us to study them as preparation for our meeting.



    One has to be careful about what is considered progress, or progressive.

    I’ve enjoyed for years the Model T Ford Club of America (MTFCA) forum. It was linear, had two places to look, Forum and Classifieds, and was easy to read and see what threads you’d missed.

    It was updated and “improved” January 1st of this year. Now, it’s a very tedious task to look at threads and figure out what you want to look at and where you want to be.

    I’m sure in someone’s mind it’s an improvement, but in my mind, it makes it a pain to go there, so I go there less.

    I’m not against change, just don’t make it a change that makes reading forum more difficult for the casual use…



    I agree with your thinking. I like the current message board. Both current postings and threads should be possible, but some sites have only topical search that ignores the currency of the discussions. Our search engine is limited to thread topic search with no keyword or number option.

    Ease of use must be one of the primary goals in the end product. A modern database should help picture submission, handle video content, allow effective advertising entries and include a “How to use the website easily”” tips. What we want to do is retain the excellent content that we now have applied to a modern database platform.”


    Wow, thanks very much David for mentioning the Model T website. I was thinking exactly the same thing.

    I visited that website every day. I’ve owned T’s, although not now, but it was still fun to read.

    Now, since January 1st, the new format first of all, took me several tries to get it to work on my Window’s laptop and again on my iPhone. But when I did, it just isn’t as approachable and encouraging to use. David said “It’s not linear” and I know what he means. However you define it, it’s not conducive to casual browsing, so I also find that I just don’t use it.

    Someone thought it was an improvement, but not everyone will agree. Same here. Ditching the current PAS website will take A LOT of discussion and examples to come up with something better, not just new.

    Not to always be the contrarian, I really don’t see what the problem is with our website. Yes it’s old and could be updated, but come already. It works. It’s simple. Everyone knows how it works and is accustomed to it.

    I never throw away something just because it’s old. And my Beta-Max works just fine. (Not really, just trying to introduce a little humor).

    — Luke


    I know we all appreciate this feedback. . Thank you for it.


    So I went and checked out the mtfca website.

    That was definitely an in-house design done with very old web design concepts in mind.

    A lot of modern discussion boards use vBulletin.

    I don’t know if our current site is using software that was purchased outright or is subscription based.

    I also don’t know if it hosted by a member, the PAS Museum or with a hosting service.

    I do know that vBulletin can be purchased outright or be subscription based and can be self hosted or service hosted.

    I encourage the Committee to look at other enthusiast websites and get a feel for what they like or want in the new site.


    I agree with David Coco that building new is not always better than improving what we have. I built computer systems all my life and the simpler systems tended to be more successful and longer lasting.

    I would also like to encourage us as a group, henceforth referred to as “The Users” to vote on needs/desires, rather than on solutions. The users who came to me with a solution in hand often got a far more expensive and poorer system than those who approached me with their actual needs.

    Leave the final solution to the builder, even if that means we, the users, don’t get to decide that one solution is ‘prettier’ than another.

    My needs for this website:

    – one operation within a discussion to get to the latest comment

    – the ability to see a video posted in a comment

    And something that I do not wish to lose in the change:

    – users identified by their true names. I’m active on another club’s site which uses nicknames. While the PAS is a much smaller and more intelligent group of people, the ability to hide behind a nickname seems to lead people to write things that lead to discord, rather than progressing the group forward.


    Well said, Dean. David as well. Try the Packard web site, it is a bit cludgy as well if you haven’t spent a lot of time pouring over it. I would like to add to Dean’s desires would be the ability to add pictures (preferably multiples as necessary) to a posting on a thread. It would also be great to be able to have a section for technical data (the Packard site is good for this) such as wiring schematics, Greg Long (and many others) how to explanations, and other pertinent technical data that is very difficult to find for a 90 year old car. I realize this takes a lot more storage than we currently have, but this is a small price to pay for the ability to find this valuable information.

    Anyone who has had a catastrophe at home, such as a fire, flood or hurricane would appreciate having a backup for important stuff, like pictures of a car that was destroyed. Detailed pictures are also valuable for members to use when re-assembling a car under restoration.


    I have been quite happy and impressed with the site, it is easy to use and reliable given the volunteer nature of maintaining one. I am one of the people on it pretty much daily.

    I think before talking about completely gutting and rebuilding the website based on statistics of use it should be born in mind what percentage of users will use it regardless of how easy or intuitive or “good” it is.

    Many – probably most -members are passive and the PAS is not their daily interest. All clubs end up being driven by a relatively small number of individual volunteers with the majority being passive. I doubt a significant website change is going to move that needle dramatically. I am not opposed to improvements, just saying expectations should be realistic. The “curmudgeon” factor must be applied. Many are not good at computers or even interested in using them. For example, there has been an effort to get interest in the PAS Facebook page, but after watching my wife deal with facebook and all its distractions and privacy problems I don’t want to have any Facebook account (she has stopped using Facebook herself). I am a curmudgeon like many and only acquiesced to getting a “smart” phone last year.

    I have been a member of PAS for over 30 years, have owned my derelict Pierce for 28 years. I have been a passive member and quietly collected PASB’s, Arrows, and other information until I finally started working on it a few years ago. I have been a member of Packard Automobile Classics for longer, I am much more active in it going on many tours with my Packard, but rarely visit the PAC website. The PAC website is large and impressive, but it simply is not my focus at the moment.

    I am spending so much time on the PAS website primarily because it is my current project and at the top of my mind.



    If this is a feedback forum, then I’d like to add that if new software is used to redesign the PAS website, please make sure it is compatible with Firefox as well as Microsoft Explorer.

    Jim mentioned the Packard Club website and this is a perfect example. I cannot see it using Firefox. When I do, I need to open Microsoft Explorer which is not my favorite browser. Appeals to the webmaster there have gone unheeded. Therefore I look at the Packard site maybe once a month as opposed to multiple times a day on our own website here.

    The HCCA also did a software upgrade some time ago, and for a while it could not be viewed using Firefox. Their webmaster, however, is very attentive and helpful, and cured the problem in short order.

    — Luke

    Something else to think about.


    Another way to get involved is to communicate your desires, suggestions and ideas to the Directors-at-Large. Our Officers are selected from the Directors. If you have an active Regional Director, talk to them as well.

    Call me anytime on my cell: 231-740-6610

    We’ll be meeting in Branson, MO at the end of the month.

    Dave Stevens

    Director since 2003


    Our current website needs a few upgrades. In general it is a good site, with a few ‘kludgy’ things.

    Such as:

    A person cannot edit a post in this message board. If it is the last and latest post you can copy it, delete it, paste it into a new post window, edit it. and repost. More ‘modern’ message boards allow editing your own posts up to several days after it was posted.

    A message cannot have more than one photo. This makes writing a technical ‘how to’ very awkward at best. Someone will always add a post in the midst of the long train of posts and individual photos.

    The ‘resizing of photos’ is incredibly awkward. I do NOT keep tiny 1200×800 pixel images in my laptop’s photo library. I keep full size images, usually 4000×3000 pixel. To have to copy and resize and save as a ‘small’ version of an image already saved is a pain.

    Almost any ‘modern’ website will have it’s own ‘resizing’ program to automatically resize a downloaded image to the size that the website wants.

    For those people who live on a computer, doing a ‘simple’ resizing or as one member uses a power-point program to make interesting and multiple photo-posts.. well, I need a YouTube tutorial on ‘how to’ accomplish such feats.

    The ‘curmudgeon factor’ mentioned in an earlier post MUST be incorporated in any upgrades to the site.

    For those ‘computer-people’ who can find and work with anything on a computer screen, just about anything will be ‘ok’. BUT for those of us who struggle with computers, a website MUST be easy and intuitive to use. Otherwise, like the earlier mentioned Model T site, people will just stop using the site..

    And already, too little of our membership visit our site, ever, or come back after being frustrated by the site.

    I’ve been on this site since 1996, and it still can frustrate me.

    We do need to proceed, but proceed with caution.

    Greg Long


    I don’t see any of this as whining, it’s a discussion of what we have currently and thoughts on changes.

    Greg sums it up well, “We do need to proceed, but proceed with caution”.

    I further agree that if one really wants to provide “change” input, and not just discuss it as we have here, then contact a member of the BOD. I’m sure they’d appreciate the input….


    I’m glad that Greg and David agree that it is indeed appropriate to discuss relevant topics which are not directly related to the cars.

    I think this is a very appropriate venue for an exchange of ideas and hope members continue to voice their concerns here to keep not only the cars running but the Society vibrant. The PAS should consider itself fortunate to have places like this to for discussion.

    I would hope that members of the BOD view this site to understand what is being discussed. But unless you are a voting member of the Board, David is right.

    — Luke


    There is an easy way to check who visits the site and the numbers over time. The majority of the BOD visit the site daily including Greg, John and myself on this thread alone.

    We have an automated reference to activity on the currently ill-maintained “ANNOUNCEMENT” section. This shows new members and site visitor data. This information section intended to keep the membership apprised of current and future activities has not been well maintained and advises us that Greg is working on a schedule for the 2019 Annual Meet.

    That info has been in our mailbox long ago and is shown for all the public to see in the non-member “ACTIVITIES” section, but not here where information and registration info belongs.

    That raises the question of how many non-members will register and attend our member-only events this year?

    Dave Stevens


    I think Greg pretty well sums up the improvements I would like to see. There are also some things I don’t want to lose. The red dot that appears on the home page when there is a new message board posting is great, as are the “New” or “Updated” flags that appear on the changed or new threads. They make it easy to find new posts. On most of the forums on other car sites you have to look at the date and time to see what has changed since the last time you were there, if you can remember, which is inconvenient at best.

    The “Roster” look up feature is among the best I have ever seen. I can put in the model of my car and get the names and contact info of the members that have similar cars. Or, I can put in my state and get the names of other PAS members near me that I may not otherwise be aware of. I don’t want to lose these features.

    While the primary purpose of the Message Board is to exchange information about all things Pierce-Arrow, I also feel it is appropriate for this type of thread to be posted on the Message Board. Several of the posters on this thread are members of the Board and there are other Board members that follow the Message Board regularly. This thread is a great way for the membership to give input to the Board on the website update, all in one place.

    I’d like to see the comments keep coming as the more suggestions the Board and Committee have, the better the website will be. As was mentioned above, you can also contact Board members directly.

    Dave White

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