- Home
- About Us
- Join/Renew
- Member Benefits
- Member Pages
- Log In
- Help
- Museum Store
Hi All,
I am contemplating the acquisition of a 1935 845 Pierce.
I don’t have much experience with this vintage of Pierce and would like to ask if anyone could give me a word of encouragement or words of caution — things to look for or look out for — on this particular model. For instance, I know that exhaust manifolds typically crack on earlier Eights.
I also don’t know much about the foot-brake system on these cars. Does it work well and is it reliable? I’ll admit the lack of a brake pedal in the conventional sense is somewhat disconcerting.
Anyway, whatever thoughts anyone could share will be appreciated. If you’d like to send me private e-mail, please do. My contact information in the website Roster is correct (not in the paper Roster).
Thanks — Luke (Scott Dwyer)
Scott,
PASB 2018-5 has an article on the 33-38 brake systems. It is available on the website in the members section under the “Service Bulletins” tab. Sorry, I don’t have any actual experience in using them. Dave
They are great cars…….no reason to hesitate about any drivability issues. 1935 is one of my favorite years for Pierce.
The Stewart-Warner Power Brake on these cars gives you the best braking performance of ANY drum brake car I’ve ever driven.
One caveat: At very low speeds (parking, stopping on a hill) you need to learn that the car will travel a foot or two before stopping because the system gets its energy from driveshaft rotation. Not rotating, no immediacy.
Dave
I believe that the later Pierces had more swept lining than a Duesenberg
or any other make. Then you add a power system that Rolls Royce and
Hispano-Suiza championed, and you have some of the best brakes in the world.
At 3 miles per hour they don’t engage like mortal cars, but after a short
learning curve you won’t even notice it. I have a ’35 and am very happy with
it. I’m the only one on my block that has one.
Scott,
I own a 1933 and 1934 (same brakes as 1935), and I can testify that they are the best brakes I have ever experienced on a vintage car.
Bob
I have owned my 1935 Model 845 for sixty eight years (second owner). They are truly great cars in the best tradition of Pierce-Arrow.
Scott,
A ’35 845 would be an ideal car to drive to Indiana for the meet next summer. Should be great rolling along the Hwy 20 Cherry Valley Route.
My own experience with the S-W system has been quite good. The clutch on the braking system on my car wore out. Typically I understand the car will stop normally to begin with, and then with use the brakes tend to fade out. I discovered that the car will still stop quite well in this situation using the hand brake, as it operates on all four brakes. Thankfully though, my car is going in shortly to have the brake system clutch replaced and we’ll be up and out on the roads come springtime.
One question which comes to mind that Kenneth Muellner addressed — and thank you everyone for your comments thus far — does concern the power brake system.
About when in the life of a car does it typically need service? The Stewart Warner system of clutches and such must wear out eventually. Do they go for 50,000 miles? 100,000 miles?
And what’s involved in a rebuild? Is this a do-it-yourself job (presuming that you can crawl under there and work) or is it a specialized procedure requiring less-than-common tools? Are the parts available?
— Luke
They are a great system, and last depending on driving habits. It’s no more or less work than any other car to do a clutch, and the power brake unit just adds another two hours to the job if it needs to be done over. It’s less than a days work in and out if you have all the parts on hand.
Fort Wayne Clutch can redo the brake disc. They use Kevlar.
Bill
I wonder about the use of Kevlar. At the Power Generation Station, I worked at for years, we learned that Kevlar is a great material but boy would it eat shafts if used as packing for pumps. We tried this new wonder material and after we could see additional cost for repairs, due to shaft wear/replacement under the Kevlar packing, we went away from using Kevlar. What do the Model T guys say about using Kevlar in those planetary transmissions, where rotation and friction go hand in hand? Those with experience please share…..
Al
Early use of Kevlar bands in a Model T transmission were fraught with the problems Alan mentions, as well as fade. As the Kevlar got hot, it would melt and your brakes would go to zero. Modern day Kevlar transmission bands appear to be somewhat better and see common use. I do not now own a Model T, so whoever has current knowledge, please chime in.
Concerning the Pierce Stewart-Warner power brake unit, why can’t the same friction disk material used on a clutch be used on the power brake unit? It does about the same thing.
— Luke
I can’t speak to the operation since I am only to the point of being able to run mine in and out of the garage – although I am pleased with a system that stops as well going in reverse as it does forward!
In terms of longevity, my 845 apparently had 55000 miles when it was retired and left to sit after WWII. When I dissassembled the power brake unit the soft woven clutch material appeared to have no wear, was in good shape and I just put it back in. There was a spot of very minor surface rust in one area of one of the pressure plates that I easily removed with very fine sandpaper to match the original surface finish. I think the key to longevity was maintaining transmission oil in the system that keeps the liner wet and lubricated. I imagine the most likely problem is leakage of the seals around the brake output shaft that would drain the transmission. The many PASB messages over the years seem to indicate the friction characteristics of the clutch material are very important to how the unit performs including whether it wants to creep at a stop. For this reason I was relieved that mine seemed to be in excellent shape and didn’t need replacement with some other material which inevitably will behave differently to some degree. If the liner is shot of course, one has no choice.
If the pressure plate faces are damaged, I would expect that turning them accurately flat and replicating the original surface finish would be very important. Theoretically speaking, too course a finish would tear up the liner quickly and too smooth might reduce the braking power.
Jim
Hi Scott,
A man of your talents would easily be able to rebuild the power back unit within hours. It’s not that difficult to work on.
I had to work on our 1934 1248A the Spring and Summer of 2018. We lost the throw-out bearing in the Fall of 2017 which proceeded to chewed all the figures of the clutch. I pulled the transmission allowing me to work on both the transmission and the brake unit out of the car. Below are my finds and/or answers to your questions.
Question About when in the life of a car does it typically need service?
Answer
It depends on how you drive the car. If you leave the car in freewheeling often and rely on the brakes, you will wear the clutch of the brake unit more. If you drive with hard stops or ride the brake, you will wear the clutch of the brake unit. The power bake unit is a one clutch regulated unit which is mechanically actuated by the brake pedal. Its acts similar to the clutch for the motor. The
Question The Stewart Warner system of clutches and such must wear out eventually.
Answer
There is only one clutch. The unit rides off the back of the transmission and encases, or submerged, in the same fluid/oil as the transmission. The oil in the transmission flows between the main body and brake unit with no pressure or specific lines. Everything is drilled open holes between the transmission unit and the brake unit case. This allows the clutch to operate as a wet clutch. The clutch disk is designed to wear. Fluid should be changed as the worn particles of the clutch will float within the transmission.
Question Do they go for 50,000 miles? 100,000 miles?
Answer
It depends. The 1934 1248A has been in the Shoberg family since 1946. The clutch disk was replace relined in the mid 1970’s, about 40,000 miles ago, when the motor was rebuilt. After 40 +/- years of driving the lining on our car looks really good. We do not drive with Freewheeling engaged as the mountains in Southern California do not warrant the adventure.
Question And what’s involved in a rebuild?
Answer
Unless the clutch disk is physically damaged or fluid in the transmission has been low, gone, a rebuild would be easy. The worm, that acts to regulate the force or pressure for the throw-out bearing, throw-out bearing, and surfaces are encased in oil. Everything is lubricated. Under normal circumstances, the only area of wear should be the clutch disk. The round disk that pushes against the clutch is made of cast iron. The output shaft the carries everything is on the output bearing, which is bigger than anything Franklin could have dreamed about.
Question Is this a do-it-yourself job (presuming that you can crawl under there and work) or is it a specialized procedure requiring less-than-common tools?
Answer
This is a do-it-yourself job. I got to do it TWICE. If you raise the body you can crawl under the car, disconnect the drive shaft, and pull 6 bolts which hold the outer case/cover. You will want to drain the fluid first. Be mindful, there are two drain plugs. One in the main body of the transmission and on body of the brake unit case. Pull BOTH. Once the cover is off you can see all four moving parts of the unit. Take a picture and proceed to take it apart. Note: The worm actuator only goes on ONE WAY. I out it back opposite of what is should have been and had no brakes. No special tools are required.
Question Are the parts available?
Answer
It depends. It will depend what, if anything, has failed. Being that everything is submerged in oil the life expectancy is longer than normal wear items. The clutch disk can be relined. Also, if something was to happen or go wrong with an item on the unit I am sure this group of Pierce-Arrow enthusiast could help you find what you need.
Scott,
Have you sold your Packard yet?
Tony C.
Hi Tony — No, I have not sold the Packard. One seriously interested fellow in Oregon recently but not serious enough to do anything about it yet.
I will be not disappointed if I keep the Packard as it is very nice and a great “grocery getter”. It would make a handsome companion to the 845 if I bought that Pierce. But if I sold the Packard there’s another more expensive Pierce I might consider instead.
Well, we are all very blessed to be able to have such decisions to ponder. I am thankful.
I agree. Good worries. As my son like to kid me, these are “First world problems””!
Robert”
I’ve put 15,000 miles on my 1934 in 12.5 years and have not needed to address the power brake lining, which was quite fresh when I bought the car.
One word of warning about the 1933-35 power brakes that apparently no one else has yet mentioned: Unlike the setup on virtually any other car, the brake pedal does not drop as the wheel brake linings wear. Accordingly, my own maintenance schedule specifies a wheel brake adjustment every 3,000 miles. You CAN detect when you need a wheel brake adjustment by making a habit of noticing how far back you must pull the hand brake lever to set the parking brake–when the lever travels to about 30 degrees behind vertical, it’s time to adjust the wheel brakes as described in the recent PASB article, and that’s a reasonably quick and easy process especially after you’ve done it the first time.