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Here is a close up of an original untouched ’35 dash that shows the raised bits. Thinking a bit more about it, I am thinking the method of painting the whole thing and polishing the paint off the high spots might have a chance of success if a relatively crude mask were made that covered most of the surface and just surrounded the outside of the art deco raised bits with some clearance so the mask did not have to be super accurate. It would keep a relatively solid polisher surface from dropping into the depression.

Jim

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Bob, I have been cogitating on the same thing and hoping someone would reply with a “why didn’t I think of that!” solution.

In the pictures of original cars I have seen (Paul Johnson’s 35 845 sedan and another untouched 845 sedan in picture) the faceplate was not wood grained but is a sort of brownish greenish gray paint. That is also how mine is. The finish on mine is a dull matte but I don’t know if that is dulled from 80 years of exposure.

I don’t know if there were differences in this finish for 12 vs 8 or body style, or if it could be changed by special order. I don’t feel that what is on mine was the most attractive choice, however I think the choice was popular ca 1935 as my ’36 Packard instrument dash plate has a very similar color and finish in its etched depressions. By accident I had a metal priming paint that was a close match to the color.

The choices for refinishing seem to be first polish the raised parts of course. After that I think the only choices are tedious. One is just paint the whole thing then carefully polish the paint back off the raised parts with a Dremel polishing wheel or something very flat that will remove the paint from the raised bits without hitting the valleys – and not scratch the raised parts. I have done this with varying degrees of success on similar pieces, but the wide expanse of this piece with very shallow etching will make this more challenging. Perhaps if the paint is applied thick enough the raised parts will show before the polishing action removes all the paint in the depressions. The paint finish will end up polished though.

The other choice is to apply painters masking tape and tediously cut the low spots out with an Xacto.

Still hoping for a better idea!

Jim

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Bill, can’t say I know of any Pierce related sites around there, but can recommend not missing the following if possible:

1) Durango Silverton railroad. Stay at the Strater hotel in Durango.

2) Mesa Verde National Park outside Durango (the cliff dwellings)

3) Grand Tetons east of Pocatello.

Being from Idaho originally, I can say there is a lot more to Idaho then spuds, but you need to go further north.

Jim

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I am not familiar with this particular part but I think “pot metal” is often a misleading term implying poorly controlled junk. Much of what is termed “pot metal” is zinc, which is very well suited to production die casting intricate parts requiring fine detail and high accuracy without subsequent machining steps. It also has good bearing and wear qualities. Zinc isn’t as strong as steel, but a lot stronger than plastics. Because it is cast it tends to have some porosity which gives lots of problems in re-plating. Zinc isn’t free, and there is an incentive by designers to keep walls thin enough to be “mission adequate” which makes them susceptible to decades of use and abuse. The vent wing brackets I am replacing with machined aluminum were zinc, and the original quality is fine, the walls just weren’t thick enough to deal with the overtorqueing of vent windows stuck in old weatherstrip.

Jim

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Thanks for the responses. I do have a ’34-’35 parts book copy I purchased from PAS. There are many parts books available from the PAS library but not ’36-’38 hence my query. Even though it doesn’t have any illustrations the ’34-35 isn’t entirely useless. It has been helpful sometimes for figuring out interchangeability between ’34 and ’35’s and between the different body styles and 8 vs 12.

Had I thought to study it a couple years ago (duh!) I would have found the answer to the question of late ’35 hydraulic tappets being different than the original ’33-early ’35.

It is interesting (to me) to know that the earlier parts books had illustrations and by ’34 it is just the numbers, names, and model/body number applicability. With no ’36 parts books it is likely testimony to the sad demise of the company scrimping to save money with bankruptcy at the door.

Jim

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Yup, kind of a Rube Goldberg band-aid on top of a Rube Goldberg system. I regret posting it since after more thought I don’t think it will work.

Nothing beats a working trip odometer with conservative guess on mileage. I have been depending on my Alfa trip odometer for years because the electric sending unit had to be replaced and the correct one for mine was no longer available. Still it kinda works and better than reading zero all the time. When it wiggles back and forth at least I know there is fuel in the the tank.

Meanwhile I like the challenge of trying to make the K-S work, so thinking of other ideas that I can test before it actually must get installed in the car. I think they must of worked okay when new, I find it hard to believe they would have been put in so many cars without some testing beforehand. The ingredient they couldn’t test was several years of aging.

I wonder if one of the impetus of the K-S gauge back then was avoiding having arcing and sparking of the variable resistor of an electric sending unit exposed to fuel tank vapors. I think the voltage is supposed to be too low to be able to initiate combustion which would explain millions of cars not exploding their gas tanks. Now of course they even bury the fuel pump in the tank.

Jim

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It is possible that you have air leaks between the tank and fuel pump, however it is more likely that you are seeing bubbles of vaporized fuel in the bowl. When you step on the gas the fuel pump tries to suddenly accelerate all the fuel in the line between the pump and the tank, this momentarily suddenly drops the pressure in the sediment bowl to a level less than the vapor pressure of the lighter constituents of the fuel and fuel vapor bubbles are formed. The bubbles will likely re-liquify before getting thrashed around in the fuel pump creating more vapor. The fuel pump was designed to deal with a lot of fuel vapor. This happens with higher temperature, rpm and throttle. It doesn’t mean that the fuel pump isn’t delivering adequate liquid fuel to the carburetor.

Yesterday I chased a similar problem on a 1960’s brand X – turned out to be ignition timing.

I would first check ignition timing. If you have dual points check timing on both sets. Then I would pull each plug and make sure none are fouled and they have the correct gap. Then I would check the distributor points to make sure they aren’t burned and have the correct gap. Double check the rotor to make sure there isn’t any evidence it has been hitting the metal tabs inside the cap. That would be a sign of worn distributor bushings.

If the roughness occurs only after it is warmed up on a hot day it could be vapor lock related, you might read my boring tomes in recent PASB’s. I see vapor bubbles pulsing in my sediment bowl without any vapor lock, and when it is in the process of vapor locking it isn’t so much a matter of running rough as it is just slowing down and dying as it leans out, or dying suddenly after hitting the throttle.

Jim

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The temp gauge is a sealed system.

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On more thought the system I propose probably wouldn’t work as shown – back to the drawing board. Bubbling air up under the air chamber with a stationary car probably won’t go through the tiny hole “C””. I suspect another part of the sloshing around of the gas in a moving car creates a slight pumping action in and out of the air chamber that allows the gasoline to drop out and the air to go in. Adding air directly into the air chamber itself would get around that problem but would have to be carefully controlled. It might add enough pressure to make the K-S fluid spill over the top of the instrument panel gauge or push gasoline into the air line.

Since Ford with its large engineering and test organization also used these gauges I would think they worked probably okay for a couple years- with everything through-out the system pristine and new. With so many tiny tubes and holes in an open system with no filtering it makes for a problem for 80 year old cars that have sat. Even the manometer assembly on the instrument gauge could plug – my K-S fluid test samples now 4 years old haven’t turned to clear but there are solid deposits showing on the glass that conceivably could get into the capillary tube between the glass tube and the brass reservoir tube.

I have tried to come up with some sort of electric/electronic gauge system that would look original – after all authenticity is only skin deep – but so far haven’t come up with any practical concept.

Jim”

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George, thanks for responding, I suspected that was the answer but thought I would confirm. Jim

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To be clear I am talking about the latch bolt, not the face of the frame it slides in. I was surprised when I removed the latch bolt that there isn’t a hint of any remnants of chrome or copper anywhere on this part, whereas the chrome face of the frame polished up to almost like new except for a couple of spots flaked out.

Thanks to the miracle of no cost instant modern digital photography I took several pictures of the stages of disassembly that hopefully will be enough for reassembly.

Yup, they are a bear to take apart particularly when thinking of how to reassemble after chroming and stay reassembled! It inevitably damages the parts. Still cogitating on that.

Thanks, Jim

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Forgot to add a picture.

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I would try a float ball in a gauge out of a car, I would be worried that a tiny ball might tend to stick to side of the glass via surface tension/capillary forces. Once in it could be real fun trying to get it out in a gauge behind the dash. My gauge is still mounte6 to the garage wall.Jim

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Automatic transmission Fluid’s density is a little less than water, the K-S fluid is 2.96 x denser than water. A change of 5 gallons in the tank would read as change of over 15 gallons on the gauge – until it overflowed out the top of the gauge. A simple manometer gauge of auto trans fluid would have be about the same height as the fuel tank to read full vs empty, although there is a trick to reduce that. The K-S gauge itself does that via the calibration rods sitting in the brass reservoir tube.

Jim

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Since the fluid hardly evaporates at all at room temperature -it can sit for years in an open K-S gauge for years – I am guessing the concentrations emanating from our cars is miniscule, which explains why we haven’t dropped dead handling it. I also assume that the low vapor pressure explains why I don’t smell it. Heating it up is probably where things would get nasty. It does seem skin and eye protection is warranted.

My nephew has responded and thinks the brass and copper of the reservoir and capillary tube is likely a part of the problem, it may be a chemical reaction that gets started generating copper bromide that would explain the sudden loss of color in the dye. Some gunk or particulates in the fluid would be an indication of this.

I need to add some copper bits to my exposure experiments.

My nephew is experimenting with some highly stable and very fluorescent day-glo green dyes if anyone is looking for something different!

Jim

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Checking chemical compatibility charts indicates that polyethlene is not recommended for long term exposure (>1 year) to acetylene tetrabromide. PE may be the plastic used for WD-40 tubes. There are two compounds that are listed as compatible: PTFE (Teflon) and Viton.

PTFE is a bit less dense than acetylene tetrabromide, so it should float. I found a red PTFE ball as small as 1/8”, but my K-S glass tube is ~1/8” so I think that ball would stick in the tube. I found natural white PTFE balls down to 1/16” dia. Perhaps one solution would be to paint a red stripe behind the glass tube and use the white PTFE ball to indicate level.

I also found 3/32 black Viton balls that should float also.

It probably wouldn’t be easy when in the car, but a ball could theoretically be dropped into the glass tube by removing the little cover above the tube. Would need some sort of clever tool to make it happen.

Jim

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I have asked my chemistry pHD nephew if he has any ideas. Meanwhile the fluid is apparently acetylene tetrabromide (1,1,2,2-tetrabromoethane) and has a specific gravity of 2.96 (2.96 denser than water, about the same as aluminum). I am not 100% certain of the identity as it is supposed to have a pretty strong smell like camphor but I haven’t noticed that, It is referenced on several sites as K-S fluid.

The following doesn’t look promising for floating plastic balls:

From MSDS: ACETYLENE TETRABROMIDE

Incompatibility: Reacts with chemically active metals or strong caustics. In the presence of steam,contact with hot iron, aluminum, and zinc may cause formation of toxic vapors.

Softens or destroys most plastics and rubbers.

It is considered pretty toxic. Here are some warnings from chemicalbook.com:

H302 Harmful if swallowed Acute toxicity,oral

H315 Causes skin irritation Skin corrosion/irritation

H319 Causes serious eye irritation Serious eye damage/eye irritation

H330 Fatal if inhaled Acute toxicity,inhalation

H335 May cause respiratory irritation Specific target organ toxicity, single exposure;Respiratory tract irritation

be careful out there!

Jim

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Yes, that is my problem. I let the brake fluid soak overnight with no improvement. Then let it sit in lacquer thinner for the day hoping to just dissolve it to some degree. No luck except finally got the back rear piece off. Now I am breaking the glass to remove the rest I am trying to avoid bending the frame too much. I will use an intact frame with glass to create a pattern for the glass and undersize it slightly, and your advice to install the weatherstrip in the outer frame first is good.

Bill I found another youtube on the wintergreen oil probably by the same guy where he did a test of five different solutions over several weeks – ATF, brake fluid, hot water + wintergreen, 3/1 alcohol/wintergreen and 5/1 alcohol/wintergreen. The last was the clear winner. I do have a few original rubber parts (door bumpers) that are in surprisingly good shape that I will do the wintergreen oil treatment to. The Steele repro door bumpers I put on my Packard 30 years ago still look brand new and really scream out they are repro. I think my Pierce originals revitalized will look better without paying Steele’s big prices.

Thanks, Jim

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No they aren’t sealed, the tubes are open at the top just like the K-S fuel gauge. The tubes were made from glass eyedropper tubes sealed at the bottom by melting the glass tip with a torch.They are in a frame that keeps rain from getting in when left outside.

The temp gauge is sealed I believe.

I have a total of 3 samples each from the two vendors and the 3 pairs are behind regular glass, 99% UV filtered glass and a UV filtered computer eyeglass lens. the idea was to see if UV filtering would extend the life of the color, but to date none have faded so no way to tell. If the weather ever gets to being like summer I will put them out in the sun again.

The colored bead inside is a great idea but the K-S fluid is some high density chemical that can be corrosive, so not sure what material – including color- a ball could be made from and survive. Has anyone done this?

Jim

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per a previous thread: I did an experiment a few years ago trying to determine how fast the K-S fluid would lose its color and if the fluid from different vendors lasted longer. I purchased new K-S fluid samples from both vendors (Ford and Classic) and put them in glass dropper tubes and set them directly in the Nevada sun for the summer. Some had UV protective glass in front of them. None of them had turned color by the end of the summer, and to date still haven’t turned sitting around in my garage.

Oddly, however, the fluid I had in my K-S fuel gauge for the test of my system was bright red for the test but after a couple of months in the garage without direct sunlight it suddenly turned light amber in the space of a week or two. That fluid was from a vial I had bought over 20 years before and had been carefully kept in its black light blocking packaging in a closed box the entire time until put in the gauge for the test.

I think it is a combination of age and light, not just the light exposure alone.

The best chance is buy fresh fluid and it should last a few years. I may put my test samples back in the sun for the summer to extend the test.

Jim

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