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Yup, kind of a Rube Goldberg band-aid on top of a Rube Goldberg system. I regret posting it since after more thought I don’t think it will work.
Nothing beats a working trip odometer with conservative guess on mileage. I have been depending on my Alfa trip odometer for years because the electric sending unit had to be replaced and the correct one for mine was no longer available. Still it kinda works and better than reading zero all the time. When it wiggles back and forth at least I know there is fuel in the the tank.
Meanwhile I like the challenge of trying to make the K-S work, so thinking of other ideas that I can test before it actually must get installed in the car. I think they must of worked okay when new, I find it hard to believe they would have been put in so many cars without some testing beforehand. The ingredient they couldn’t test was several years of aging.
I wonder if one of the impetus of the K-S gauge back then was avoiding having arcing and sparking of the variable resistor of an electric sending unit exposed to fuel tank vapors. I think the voltage is supposed to be too low to be able to initiate combustion which would explain millions of cars not exploding their gas tanks. Now of course they even bury the fuel pump in the tank.
Jim
It is possible that you have air leaks between the tank and fuel pump, however it is more likely that you are seeing bubbles of vaporized fuel in the bowl. When you step on the gas the fuel pump tries to suddenly accelerate all the fuel in the line between the pump and the tank, this momentarily suddenly drops the pressure in the sediment bowl to a level less than the vapor pressure of the lighter constituents of the fuel and fuel vapor bubbles are formed. The bubbles will likely re-liquify before getting thrashed around in the fuel pump creating more vapor. The fuel pump was designed to deal with a lot of fuel vapor. This happens with higher temperature, rpm and throttle. It doesn’t mean that the fuel pump isn’t delivering adequate liquid fuel to the carburetor.
Yesterday I chased a similar problem on a 1960’s brand X – turned out to be ignition timing.
I would first check ignition timing. If you have dual points check timing on both sets. Then I would pull each plug and make sure none are fouled and they have the correct gap. Then I would check the distributor points to make sure they aren’t burned and have the correct gap. Double check the rotor to make sure there isn’t any evidence it has been hitting the metal tabs inside the cap. That would be a sign of worn distributor bushings.
If the roughness occurs only after it is warmed up on a hot day it could be vapor lock related, you might read my boring tomes in recent PASB’s. I see vapor bubbles pulsing in my sediment bowl without any vapor lock, and when it is in the process of vapor locking it isn’t so much a matter of running rough as it is just slowing down and dying as it leans out, or dying suddenly after hitting the throttle.
Jim
The temp gauge is a sealed system.
On more thought the system I propose probably wouldn’t work as shown – back to the drawing board. Bubbling air up under the air chamber with a stationary car probably won’t go through the tiny hole “C””. I suspect another part of the sloshing around of the gas in a moving car creates a slight pumping action in and out of the air chamber that allows the gasoline to drop out and the air to go in. Adding air directly into the air chamber itself would get around that problem but would have to be carefully controlled. It might add enough pressure to make the K-S fluid spill over the top of the instrument panel gauge or push gasoline into the air line.
Since Ford with its large engineering and test organization also used these gauges I would think they worked probably okay for a couple years- with everything through-out the system pristine and new. With so many tiny tubes and holes in an open system with no filtering it makes for a problem for 80 year old cars that have sat. Even the manometer assembly on the instrument gauge could plug – my K-S fluid test samples now 4 years old haven’t turned to clear but there are solid deposits showing on the glass that conceivably could get into the capillary tube between the glass tube and the brass reservoir tube.
I have tried to come up with some sort of electric/electronic gauge system that would look original – after all authenticity is only skin deep – but so far haven’t come up with any practical concept.
Jim”
George, thanks for responding, I suspected that was the answer but thought I would confirm. Jim
To be clear I am talking about the latch bolt, not the face of the frame it slides in. I was surprised when I removed the latch bolt that there isn’t a hint of any remnants of chrome or copper anywhere on this part, whereas the chrome face of the frame polished up to almost like new except for a couple of spots flaked out.
Thanks to the miracle of no cost instant modern digital photography I took several pictures of the stages of disassembly that hopefully will be enough for reassembly.
Yup, they are a bear to take apart particularly when thinking of how to reassemble after chroming and stay reassembled! It inevitably damages the parts. Still cogitating on that.
Thanks, Jim
Forgot to add a picture.
I would try a float ball in a gauge out of a car, I would be worried that a tiny ball might tend to stick to side of the glass via surface tension/capillary forces. Once in it could be real fun trying to get it out in a gauge behind the dash. My gauge is still mounte6 to the garage wall.Jim
Automatic transmission Fluid’s density is a little less than water, the K-S fluid is 2.96 x denser than water. A change of 5 gallons in the tank would read as change of over 15 gallons on the gauge – until it overflowed out the top of the gauge. A simple manometer gauge of auto trans fluid would have be about the same height as the fuel tank to read full vs empty, although there is a trick to reduce that. The K-S gauge itself does that via the calibration rods sitting in the brass reservoir tube.
Jim
Since the fluid hardly evaporates at all at room temperature -it can sit for years in an open K-S gauge for years – I am guessing the concentrations emanating from our cars is miniscule, which explains why we haven’t dropped dead handling it. I also assume that the low vapor pressure explains why I don’t smell it. Heating it up is probably where things would get nasty. It does seem skin and eye protection is warranted.
My nephew has responded and thinks the brass and copper of the reservoir and capillary tube is likely a part of the problem, it may be a chemical reaction that gets started generating copper bromide that would explain the sudden loss of color in the dye. Some gunk or particulates in the fluid would be an indication of this.
I need to add some copper bits to my exposure experiments.
My nephew is experimenting with some highly stable and very fluorescent day-glo green dyes if anyone is looking for something different!
Jim
Checking chemical compatibility charts indicates that polyethlene is not recommended for long term exposure (>1 year) to acetylene tetrabromide. PE may be the plastic used for WD-40 tubes. There are two compounds that are listed as compatible: PTFE (Teflon) and Viton.
PTFE is a bit less dense than acetylene tetrabromide, so it should float. I found a red PTFE ball as small as 1/8â€, but my K-S glass tube is ~1/8†so I think that ball would stick in the tube. I found natural white PTFE balls down to 1/16†dia. Perhaps one solution would be to paint a red stripe behind the glass tube and use the white PTFE ball to indicate level.
I also found 3/32 black Viton balls that should float also.
It probably wouldn’t be easy when in the car, but a ball could theoretically be dropped into the glass tube by removing the little cover above the tube. Would need some sort of clever tool to make it happen.
Jim
I have asked my chemistry pHD nephew if he has any ideas. Meanwhile the fluid is apparently acetylene tetrabromide (1,1,2,2-tetrabromoethane) and has a specific gravity of 2.96 (2.96 denser than water, about the same as aluminum). I am not 100% certain of the identity as it is supposed to have a pretty strong smell like camphor but I haven’t noticed that, It is referenced on several sites as K-S fluid.
The following doesn’t look promising for floating plastic balls:
From MSDS: ACETYLENE TETRABROMIDE
Incompatibility: Reacts with chemically active metals or strong caustics. In the presence of steam,contact with hot iron, aluminum, and zinc may cause formation of toxic vapors.
Softens or destroys most plastics and rubbers.
It is considered pretty toxic. Here are some warnings from chemicalbook.com:
H302 Harmful if swallowed Acute toxicity,oral
H315 Causes skin irritation Skin corrosion/irritation
H319 Causes serious eye irritation Serious eye damage/eye irritation
H330 Fatal if inhaled Acute toxicity,inhalation
H335 May cause respiratory irritation Specific target organ toxicity, single exposure;Respiratory tract irritation
be careful out there!
Jim
Yes, that is my problem. I let the brake fluid soak overnight with no improvement. Then let it sit in lacquer thinner for the day hoping to just dissolve it to some degree. No luck except finally got the back rear piece off. Now I am breaking the glass to remove the rest I am trying to avoid bending the frame too much. I will use an intact frame with glass to create a pattern for the glass and undersize it slightly, and your advice to install the weatherstrip in the outer frame first is good.
Bill I found another youtube on the wintergreen oil probably by the same guy where he did a test of five different solutions over several weeks – ATF, brake fluid, hot water + wintergreen, 3/1 alcohol/wintergreen and 5/1 alcohol/wintergreen. The last was the clear winner. I do have a few original rubber parts (door bumpers) that are in surprisingly good shape that I will do the wintergreen oil treatment to. The Steele repro door bumpers I put on my Packard 30 years ago still look brand new and really scream out they are repro. I think my Pierce originals revitalized will look better without paying Steele’s big prices.
Thanks, Jim
No they aren’t sealed, the tubes are open at the top just like the K-S fuel gauge. The tubes were made from glass eyedropper tubes sealed at the bottom by melting the glass tip with a torch.They are in a frame that keeps rain from getting in when left outside.
The temp gauge is sealed I believe.
I have a total of 3 samples each from the two vendors and the 3 pairs are behind regular glass, 99% UV filtered glass and a UV filtered computer eyeglass lens. the idea was to see if UV filtering would extend the life of the color, but to date none have faded so no way to tell. If the weather ever gets to being like summer I will put them out in the sun again.
The colored bead inside is a great idea but the K-S fluid is some high density chemical that can be corrosive, so not sure what material – including color- a ball could be made from and survive. Has anyone done this?
Jim
per a previous thread: I did an experiment a few years ago trying to determine how fast the K-S fluid would lose its color and if the fluid from different vendors lasted longer. I purchased new K-S fluid samples from both vendors (Ford and Classic) and put them in glass dropper tubes and set them directly in the Nevada sun for the summer. Some had UV protective glass in front of them. None of them had turned color by the end of the summer, and to date still haven’t turned sitting around in my garage.
Oddly, however, the fluid I had in my K-S fuel gauge for the test of my system was bright red for the test but after a couple of months in the garage without direct sunlight it suddenly turned light amber in the space of a week or two. That fluid was from a vial I had bought over 20 years before and had been carefully kept in its black light blocking packaging in a closed box the entire time until put in the gauge for the test.
I think it is a combination of age and light, not just the light exposure alone.
The best chance is buy fresh fluid and it should last a few years. I may put my test samples back in the sun for the summer to extend the test.
Jim
After 37 years with J.C. Taylor I finally gave up this year and switched to Hagerty. Taylor no longer has any local brokers in my end of the state, and my new “brokers” became a succession of other national insurance companies – Wells Fargo, then HUB with no contact information to make policy changes. The total premium was less with Hagerty even though I added an additional collector car to the policy. My local Allstate agent was able to be my Hagerty broker.
Jim
Dave Murray responded to my question: “I believe the bracket for the wing window operator is the same. I have both a 35 and a 36 and have not noticed any difference although I have not examined them closely.””
He also notes that he may have some good originals.
Jim”
I have to take back my criticisms of the Firestone 7:00-17 tires steering. I just completed an 800 mile tour with them and they behaved just fine – no more tramping than the Lesters. I guess I was overly sensitive on the first drive as it was done on I-80 which has fairly deep ruts from all the truck traffic and no bias ply tire does well in that scenario.
—and the tubes were the 700R750R16LT truck tire tubes mentioned above.
Jim
I had no issues with the Lester’s, just wore them out. Tubes sold with 7.00-17 by Coker are too large – previous thread. Tubes sold with 7.00-19 may be okay.
Jim
I ran into the same problem on my ’36 Packard years ago. The sizes for 7:00-17 are not consistent. I originally bought Denmans that would not fit in the sidemount covers. I then bought a pair of 6.50:17, they were significantly smaller and I had to stuff foam rubber around them to keep the covers in place. I discovered that Lester’s 7.00:17 is slightly smaller and has a somewhat narrower tread width. I think the Lester’s dimensions correspond to the original OEM tires. The current Firestone 7.00:17’s are larger.
A side benefit to the Lester’s – at least on my Packard – were the car handles significantly better with the narrower tread width – much less “tramping” kicking the wheel to follow ruts. There always seems to be a psychological bias that bigger is always better and 7.00-17’s get replaced with 7.50:17’s. Not always the case. Unfortunately I didn’t realize the Firestones were wider than the Lester’s and I replaced my tires last year with the Firestones. Now it is rut-following again like it did with the Denmans – I wish I had bought the Lesters. They are apparently still available at Universal, but no longer from Coker.
Years ago Coker published a catalog that gave the diameter and tread width dimensions of all their tires. On the Universal site the diameter dimension isn’t given so it might be worthwhile to check with them to confirm the Lester is still smaller. It would be surprising if it isn’t from the same mold as before though.
Jim
