- Home
- About Us
- Join/Renew
- Member Benefits
- Member Pages
- Log In
- Help
- Museum Store
Bill,
For these really difficult to separate parts, try Oil of Wintergreen as a solvent to wick through the rust and loosen things up a bit and reduce the size of BFH required.
Back in the day, when I was a young engineer at the power plant, we used this oil as the penetrant to loosen the large nuts and bolts holding the both steam turbine shell halves together, at the 5 year rebuild cycle. This oil loosened the threads enough, so they could be removed with only slugging wrench and small sledge hammer. In the years before using this solvent, they broke off several of these 1-1/2″ bolts with just brute force. The older mechanics swore that oil of wintergreen was the very best penetrant to use, as it would get into places the other fluids wouldn’t touch. Herb
Probably a good idea to go back with safety glass if you can. There is a reason it has been a requirement in new cars for more than 60 years that I know of. This was one of the earliest mandated changes for new cars and for good reason. There are some clubs that even require it as an updated safety measure before judging. If you do make the upgrade, ensure that the “safety glass” etch is visible after installation, to prove it has been changed. In a crash, the old style glass splinter into swords that will slice and dice all the occupants in the car.
This puller is probably similar, but (1) measure the distance between the two jaws to make sure it easily fits over the spline. Too tight will damage them if you have to pound the puller into place. (2) Check the overall height to make sure it fits between the arm and the fender. See you in Hershey!
The bent washer is also on my ’29 and is probably what should be there. Looking at the step in diameter between the threads and spline, I would NOT recommend a split washer as it is likely to damage the end of the spline. If your car has the Gemmer steering box, the threads on the steering box output shaft are probably 7/8 diameter and 14 threads per inch, which is the standard UNF series. I would treat this shaft no more than a Grade 2 bolt, which has a recommended torque of 83 ft-lb. I agree with Ovid that the torque should be about 70 ft-lb as a conservative number. Using a little less torque will keep from stretching the threads. I treated mine as a bit less than the Grade 2, so will also end up about 70 when finished. With the bent tab restrainer, the nut will stay in place at this torque. Having a source of new restrainers available is a very good idea, as the tabs do not take many uses before breaking off, and most of our cars likely had this removed a time or two over the years. The only special feature of these retainers in the leg that goes down to hold around the Pitman arm and keep the whole assembly from rotating.
Once you have the nut off (1-1/2″ wrench), you are only half way done. The more difficult part is pulling the arm off the spline. It won’t fall off by itself. If you still have the fenders in place, a standard three leg pullers will not fit in this cramped area. I found a puller for the current F250 & F-350 (Lisle #41970) is short enough to fit. But you need to reverse a shorter (1 inch long) bolt so that it is on the inside of the puller, making it possible to fit under the fender / running board support and still get a wrench on it. Email me if you want some pictures of the modified puller.
Tony, Thanks for the compliment. I try hard to make the best reproduction parts I can to perfectly fit the original dimensions for our premier motor cars.
I would agree that a mouse – or their family – was the way the vermiculite went into the exhaust. Not sure where it came from. If it was in the garden to soak up water for the plants, then it is OK. If it used as insulation, it may contain asbestos if it was installed before 1978 when it was banned for the health of the installers who inhaled the dust.
You have cured the problem by welding up the front door of the mouse’s entry way, so should not be an ongoing problem. Best of luck with it. Herb Tull
Bill, From the pictures, I can’t tell if these are metal braids or cloth braids on the hoses. If metal braids, check out SWAGELOK as they have stainless braid hose, 1/2 inch inside diameter, 37 degree bevel (flare) fittings and 12 inches long (P/N: SS-CT8AS8AS8-12). I have dealt with the Raleigh NC office for several years and their service is excellent.
Another source (perhaps with cloth braid, if that is what you need) may be Raleigh-Durham Rubber and Gasket. I have purchased custom hose and gaskets from them in the past and they carry a wide selection (Web: http://www.raleighdurhamrubber.com/ ) (Raleigh Phone: 800-662-7577). Good luck with your project. Herb
Charles,
What you are looking for is a 3-way valve, similar to what I had on some old motorcycles (off – main – reserve). My first thought was a Model A fuel valve, but it is only a 2-way and would not provide the reserve setting. You will need one that does NOT draw from both tanks at the same time. I did find a number of 3-way brass valves on the Internet; West Marine has a 3/8 valve for boating with 2 fuel tanks and this may work for you. I am not familiar with what the one on your Pierce should look like, but this one can be adapted to a longer operating rod. Amazon also has a selection of these fuel valves – but I would suggest a 3/8 valve instead of 1/4 inch, so the engine won’t starve in a long or heavy pull. Below is a picture of the West Marine valve. Best of luck, Herb
Bill,
Thanks for posting the detail picture of the block. I share your concern about the crack(s) from the water jacket for a few reasons. My guess is that the root cause was likely the result of a significant overheating event at some time in the past; having cracked the head on my small block chevy motor years ago when it broke the fan belt and cooked itself. Second, the rust molecules (Fe2O3) are larger than just the iron (Fe), so rust will continue to expand the crack like ice does to cracks in rocks. Third, you can see on the side toward the head bolt hole that the corrosion in the water jacket has a thin spot, so coolant may have been leaking past the head gasket for a while and washed the crud out of that area.
Your idea of drilling a stop hole is an excellent one, but I would recommend an allen head set screw (about #8 size – McMaster-Carr has a good selection of lengths) instead of using plain threaded rod. The reason is that you can use a allen key to insert the set screw so the top a slightly below flush with the top of the block and allow the head gasket to seat when you assemble the engine. Also, consider putting a second stop hole and setscrew into what appears to be a smaller crack on the opposite side of the water passage, so that spot does not become a problem in the future. Then, consider cleaning the water passage hole and painting it with high temperature engine paint and a Q-tip to prevent the rust from returning to that spot. Careful use of a drill bit may be a good way to get the hard rust out of the passage.
Good luck with the restoration and I am looking forward to seeing the car on the road when you finish. Best Regards, Herb Tull
Take George’s advice as he has much more experience with this generation of cars than I do. However, the PAS Wiring and Tune-up guide does have some good advice (as does some older Service Bulletins on this site). It appears that 1935 was the first year of the voltage regulator, and it was installed as part of a single unit with the cut-out relay and mounted on the generator. The function of the cut-out relay is to prevent the generator from acting as a motor when the engine is off. If this relay fails, the generator will drain the battery in a very few hours, as the locked rotor current draws about 18 amps. I did find a picture of a ’35 with a single unit mounted on the generator, where the Wiring Guide says it should be (picture did not load – I will email it to you separately).
One way you may be able to distinguish between the Delco and Owen-Dyneto is by the number of field coils used. Each field coil is held in place by a large screw through the case of the generator. According to the Wiring Guide, the Delco unit uses only two field coils (and therefore 2 screws), while the Owen unit uses 4 field coils and thus 4 field mounting screws.
The wiring diagram and text on page 89 (for all the ’36, 37 & 38 models) mentions a 5 amp fuse mounted in the voltage regulator case (under a knurled plug), to limit field current. If this fuse is blown, then the generator will have no output. This would be the first item to check. The regulator is a 2-step type that apparently should shift at 8 volts / 1900 rpm / about 25-30 mph.
John,
Your 1602 has a 3-brush type generator with a cutout relay AND a voltage regulator. Look at the wiring diagram on page 90 of the Pierce Arrow Wiring and Tune-Up Guide (published by PAS) This is a very good reference. See PAS Service Bulletin 89-#1 for a short explanation of this regulator; “Hollander parts interchange manual lists the original relay-regulator unit used on Pierce- Arrows from mid-year 1935 models on, as an Autolite #40300, used on no other automobile vehicles.”
This diagram does show a field fuse in the regulator, which could cause some of the trouble you describe. Another problem could be the loss of residual magnetism in the field iron, which happens after sitting for several years – the remedy is to flash the field coil with battery voltage for a very few seconds to restore this residual magnetism.
My 1943 Motors Manual confirms that 35-38 Pierce did use the Startix and a 3-brush generator. The third brush set the output voltage of the generator and is typically adjustable around the armature to make this happen. The generator section does explain that (1) polarity does matter to the voltage regulator, (2) there are several types of regulators used on cars of this vintage (A) Light switch controlled step voltage, (B) two step relay control and (3) vibrating regulator, which rapidly steps the output up-and-down in response to battery voltage.
A quick search of the internet DID turn up a mechanical voltage regulator with positive ground that should work to confirm your system: The Ford 8N & 9N from about 1950 have this system and the regulator is still available from antique tractor supply houses. Not a perfect fit, but probably better than nothing to prove if your regulator is the problem.
The cutout relay is the other issue and that can be investigated by removing the cover and verifying that the coil is a complete circuit and the contact arm is free to move. Some people change this out to a large diode hidden in the original enclosure, but should not really be necessary.
Hope this is helpful
I would add another 2 cents worth to the thread. While I think that Curtis is right on the money with most of his observations, I would add that the cancellation of so many events, from the annual PAS show to local shopping center get-together afternoons due to this pandemic has taken our attention away from the old cars and onto other near-term concerns. Given that many of us are in that target demographic of “older people”, it certainly makes sense to protect ourselves and our friends by not gathering together. Unfortunately, it also takes our attention away from working on our cars when the day-to-day priorities are so much more difficult than they used to be.
The camaraderie and face-to-face conversations are a key part of the antique car hobby. For many years, I have heard that it is the people involved that make these cars fun and not obsolete old vehicles themselves, which I have certainly found to be true. Being relatively new to PAS, I have certainly seen and enjoyed the fellowship and friendships at the show in Indiana and the 2020 annual meeting in Williamsburg.
Yes, the new forum had some problems with losing data, which may have scared some people away, but the forum seems to be working much better now. My hope is that as this pandemic finally gets under control, our members will gravitate back to the forum for contact and technical support.
Stay safe, Herb
James,
The issue whether to have a rubber section in the oil pressure gauge copper line will depend on the type of motor mounts installed in the car. If you have SOLID motor mounts, then a solid line will be OK as the motor does not move relative to the chassis or firewall. This also means that solid exhaust line mounts will be satisfactory.
On the other hand, if your car has rubber (flexible) motor mounts to reduce vibration like all modern vehicles, then the motor DOES shake relative to the chassis and the rubber tubing section is essential. Copper will quickly work harden and become brittle from flexing. If the engine is moving relative to the firewall, then you do need something to absorb that movement to prevent the copper tube from cracking and leaking. The same is true with the exhaust mounts, which is why all modern cars have a rubber flex piece between the body and exhaust line at every support point.
Good luck and stay safe during this plague. Herb
Jane,
Thanks for posting this video. It is a great resource for those of us with cars of this period, but did not attend the meeting – also great advertising for making the effort to attend each event. It verified that some of the parts on my car that I questioned are correct – and pointed out other places where I have work to do.
Well Done! Herb Tull
Bill, This sounds like your spring pivots may be the (old) UNEF thread standard that were 18 threads per inch in this size range (dimensions are published on-line). Unusual, but not unheard-of for this era of manufacturing. Measure the thread inside diameter carefully (use a T gauge & micrometer) plus a thread gauge to verify the pitch, then consult a thread chart (table) before assuming the size. During this period, bolts were made on screw machines and lathes that had fixed gears to set the threads-per-inch, so some unusual combinations came about (such as the 14 thread-per-inch series).
Looking in my 1929 parts catalog, the front mount of the springs is not complex and the threads are likely to hold retainers that give the spring a vertical pivot but prevent horizontal movement. Check with John Cislak, as he advertised shackle set for the older models and they are likely to be quite similar. Even if you need them custom-made, they are not that complex.
In any event, measure the threads carefully and consult a thread chart (table) before assuming the size. Taps to clean up the threads in your spring hangers are available, but rather expensive. Herb
Stories like Anthony’s are why safety glass, seat belts and the other automotive safety features were invented and then made mandatory! One of the best things that AACA did for our hobby many years ago was to make safety glass and fire extinguishers mandatory for all cars exhibited at their shows, which set the standard for everyone else.
I have installed seat belts in cars from the 1950’s & 60’s that I fixed up as daily drivers, and will probably also add them to my Pierce this winter. However, the wooden floorboards will require a bit of careful engineering and reinforcement to get sufficiently strong attachment points, as the inertia loads of our bodies during a crash can be very large. Many years ago during Engineering school (1974), I had a summer job testing seat belt anchors in new cars and several failed by peeling up the sheet metal of the trunk floor, as the test load of about 600 pounds was applied to each belt.
Our cars are beautiful artwork, but some things about “the good old days” weren’t really all that good. Preserving and enjoying historical equipment is indeed a very enjoyable hobby, but learning how to make transportation safer and better is more important for society in the long run. Herb
Oivind,
The eccentric cam you show is symmetrical, so it can be actually be adjusted from either direction. On my 1929, there is a covered slot in the drum that is used to test the distance from drum to show with a feeler gauge and I strongly recommend you use it. I have recently been down this path with mine and it is not trivial. Keep trying to spin the wheel until it drags on the high spots of the drum as you adjust it. The other thing the feeler gauge can help you understand is whether the shoes have the same radius of curvature as the drum. re-curving each shoe before putting them back on the car was a point of adjustment at one time when re-lining the brakes.
Here is a web page for adjusting the Bendix 3-shoe brakes; http://dmacweb.com/tech/brakes/bendix/BENDIX.htm
There is also a manual on the web that I have printed out that goes into great detail on how these brakes work. There is a download, if you scroll down in this AACA forum: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/163474-three-shoe-brakespros-cons/
Getting everything to balance is not that easy, as there are about 4 variables on each wheel (eccentric, main cam pre-load, rod setting to balance between wheels and how round is your brake drum. Put the car up on jack stands and do the major adjustment on all 4 wheels to keep them in balance, so the car won’t pull to one side.
Since these drums are STEEL and not cast iron, you don’t want to turn them and normal brake machines cannot handle it anyway. Good luck with it – there is a lot of trial and error as you. Herb
I realize this is a “stale” thread, but wanted to add my $0.02 as I am changing the lights on my ’29 to LEDs. The best advantage is more light with less current. I ordered 1129 headlight LEDs and 1158 brake/tail light lamps from http://www.LEDlights.com. The parts arrived rapidly,fit well and are substantially brighter. I did notice that the focus of the headlights is different, but should still be acceptable for high-beam use. Adding the resister for dim lights should take care of in-town driving concerns.
The challenge now is the low (dim) setting for the headlights, which wasn’t working with the incandescent lamps either. Because of the lower current draw, I will need to experiment to see what voltage (and therefore resistance) will work best for the “dim” setting. V=IR is the electrical relationship. I did see another thread here that the resister is supposed to be inside the left frame rail, so that is the target location for the new one, once I size it.
Important note: LED is an acronym for Light Emitting DIODE. Diodes only conduct in ONE direction, so a negative ground lamp is not likely to work on a positive ground car. I have had this problem on AC applications, where we had too much flicker with LEDs (on a 25 Hz system) as it was only on during half the cycle. The vendor did distinguish his parts between positive and negative ground applications, so I take that as a strong hint in ordering.
Herb
http://https://www.ledlight.com/6-volt-positive-ground-automotive-led-lights.aspx
The size 12-32 is indeed real. MSC carries both dies and taps in this size if you need to clean up the ones you have or make new ones from stock. Amazon advertises a go/nogo thread gauge for this size.
No, it is not a common size; #12 is an oddball size anyway, but the UNC/UNF standard thread counts are 24 and 28 per inch. The most common 32 thread count is a #10 screw.
Best of luck,
Herb Tull
