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Bill, I don’t have any direct experience with cracked blocks, so not sure. The location and direction of the crack is a bit puzzling to me, but it seems it might be a combination of over stress from over torqueing the nearby stud and stress corrosion. Apparently the surface has a a high tensile stress  left to right around the stress concentration of the hole and a lot of corrosion. As the crack starts it generates a very high stress concentration at the leading edge of the crack that exposes more virgin metal to corrosion and lets the crack grow more. My first thought is to stop drill only with a pretty small hole and without a tapered pin. The tapered pin would increase the local tension stress at the crack stopper hole. Maybe that’s a good thing to yield material locally around the hole to reduce fatigue, but can’t sort it out in my head at the moment. I might use a bit lower than recommended bolt torque for that stud when installing the head.

Jim

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I am unclear about what the status of this forum is vis a vis the AACA forum. In places the names of the posters are not included, I assume these had some involvement on the AACA sight?

After the glitch was diagnosed and apparently fixed, was it decided to wait a bit to make sure it was fixed before deciding whether to go with it or stay independent?

Personally Covid has allowed more time to concentrate on restoration, and I am quite unsociable anyway. But I imagine those with driveable cars who are more involved with shows and tours just aren’t too engaged at the moment.

My posts are primarily involved in restoration, and I have the perception that only a small portion of members are actually involved in hands-on restoration anymore.

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I apologize for not responding sooner, low oil pressure on a fresh engine always a concern. I would expect the engine to go up to over 20 psi fairly quickly when started cold. After it gets hot very low oil pressures are not necessarily a problem. My Packard after rebuild 30,000+ miles ago has always barely registered at hot idle, goes to 35 or so on the road. My ’74 Alfa has 170,00+ miles and it’s hot idle reading has always been so low it basically doesn’t register on the gauge and decades ago I confirmed with a separate mechanical gauge that it really was above the 2 psi that would light the low oil pressure warning light. Before it’s rebuild at 99,000 miles (with hardly any wear and no issues when torn down) I discovered a crankshaft oil gallery plug had blown out. After rebuild it hardly read any higher. That may be because often the new inserts (not relevant to P-A) can have more clearance than the originals. I theorize that bearing suppliers may be worried about liability exposure if a customer rebuilds an engine too tight and it seizes, which is much more likely than any failure from higher clearance.

2 days ago I fired my ’35 Pierce up with an original gauge installed on the dash and was surprised it jumped to over 50 psi where the newer mechanical gauge I had been using mounted directly on the oil port never read above 40. I don’t think either of these gauges are paragons of accuracy.

What is your gauge reading cold at low idle and higher rpm when it reaches a steady point?

If it is reading zero that of course is a big immediate concern. If just reading low then there are a number of possibilities. The main thing is that oil is circulating, the oil pressure you read on the gauge is just an indicator that oil is circulating, and the ability of the bearings and pistons to ride the oil film without grinding directly on the sliding surfaces has basically nothing to do with the oil pressure reading as long as the oil reaches the bearing or cylinder wall. Oil pressure is an indicator that the oil is pumping and and reaching the places it needs to go. Note that many inexpensive low performance engines don’t even have an oil pump and rely only on oil splashing around.

Low oil pressure can be from several sources besides the gauge. The oil pressure regulator could be set up with too low a spring pressure to bypass oil sooner at high rpm. This shouldn’t be an issue at idle as the spring should be preventing any oil from bypassing. Another is the oil pump is significantly worn. The oil pump intake screen could be plugged with debris.

The most common cause of low oil pressure is excessive clearance in the main, con rod, and cam bearings, usually from wear. The whole oil system is like a sprinkler hose getting fed water with lots of little holes for the water to stream out of. If the holes -represented by the bearing clearances – are consistent and even then the all the holes will stream the same amount of water. If one of the holes gets a lot bigger than the others for some reason, then more water will flow to that hole and less will reach the other holes. If the wear in the bearings is reasonably consistent throughout then the lower pressure needed to get oil everywhere needed is not a big issue. If it is because of some major failure at some point then that is something different of course.

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Thanks for the responses. Digging through my boxes – looking for something else – I came across the remains of the rubber flex oil line that was on the car in 1964, probably original. When I inventoried my boxes decades ago I didn’t know what it was and for some reason didn’t record it on my spreadsheet with a description that came up with my key word search. Getting a car with lots of boxes means many parts that you don’t know what they are, I still have a few of those and I will probably post some pictures at some point. Meanwhile I found a flex oil line to bridge between the engine fitting and the copper line going through the firewall at McMaster Carr and have an original gauge set up and working.

On my ’36 Packard, which has a very flexible 3 point rubber suspension system (Chrysler patent), the oil pressure line is smaller gauge 1/8″ copper line with several spiral turns above the fitting to allow for the flex instead of rubber.

 

Thanks again!

Jim

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Thanks Tony. Well, the Pierce has 10 more hp and the original 4.23 rear end ratio so it should inch past the Packard uphill. But, my Packard has a 3.58 rear end and copper lead bearings, so better at higher speeds. Pierce would be better for those wine tastings tour stops, where one is stopped on steep upgrades waiting for everyone ahead to back into parking spots. A real clutch burner with a tall rear end!

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Thanks, it’s not concours but it will do for a driver. The dash is woodgrained metal per original. I had all the woodgrain bits redone several years ago by Undercover Paint and Upholstery for a very reasonable price.

The gauges are a bit mix and match. The amp and oil pressure are originals in very good condition that I found over the years that I basically did nothing to. The temp gauge is also original that a previous owner must have found that was in pretty good condition but the white on the facia is more browned from age than the rest. I don’t like redoing original stuff that is in pretty good condition but not perfect.  Somewhat inspiring when things manage to survive 85 years and still look fairly good. I debated even yesterday on taking it out and redoing the facia, but I am paranoid about disturbing it any more than necessary. In the box of parts it was still sealed with K-S fluid but for some reason it seemed to have a bubble somewhere that screwed up the readings and I couldn’t get it corrected myself. Years ago I had “The Temperature Gauge Guy” replace the capillary tube and fluid to get it reading correctly again. I suspect it got screwed up by having it lay on its side in the box over the years, so I have kept it more or less upright since and it is the last gauge I installed in the cluster while hanging the dash vertically. Hopefully the whole mess will work

The speedometer face is glass with translucent white with black numbers painted on the back. That usually flakes off and this facia is a reproduction I was very luck to find. It had been done to restore another ’35 and a few extras were made. Before this I had created a complete CAD file to have one silk screened but finding this one saved me the trouble. If anyone needs one in future I still have the CAD file. Being fresh and new it is whiter than the others.

Being a DIY’er like you, I did the gas gauge and clock face using CAD and inkjet printing. Because the K-S fluid is corrosive and ruins fuel gauges over time I left the little top cover off in hopes it would reduce the trapping of KS fluid vapor in the gauge. Maybe a mistake.

The far left is non-authentic to replace the radio blank (my car did not have the optional radio and I feel like a radio blank makes it look like one cheaped out). It has an EGT and oil temp gauge I made from the innards of new gauges. I have bypassed the oil temp regulator/cooler since mine leaked and wanted to track oil temperatures. I have also been curious about exhaust temperatures for many years as it is an instigator for exhaust valve seat recession. The design matches the style for the most part of the oil pressure and amp gauges.

 

 

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I’m not sure, I haven’t tried taking them apart as the springs and balls are swaged in permantly. I would have to drill the ends out, find some miniature springs and balls and probably drill and tap to hold them in with set screws. A lot of hassle for such a little part!

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Dave, thanks for looking it up. The reference from the report server is below I didn’t know things went back that far but looks like it is in the 1964 Arrow issue #3! – before the PASB’s?

I forgot to mention mine is a 1935 845, but a ’33 836 is probably relevant if you have it.

 

The Arrow – Pressure, Oil Gauge – Tubing Replacement, 1933-
Subject(s):Motor, Lubrication system
Model:836, 1236, 1242, 1247
Cylinders:8
Publication Title:The Arrow
Publication Year:1964
Issue #:3
Page #:14

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Here they are assembled, this is a ’35 but I think ’33 is the same.

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Ed thanks for responding, but I have 3 original ’35 original speedometers and 2 out of 3 had this amber colored  translucent film cracked but still attached to the back. One was the original on my car and I don’t believe had been touched. On the 3rd the film was completely gone. There is nothing on the front side of any of my white discs. The arrow is a hole cut in the white disc and the indirect lighting from bulbs in back would illuminate the arrow from behind, and the larger green rectangle illuminates the speed numbers through the translucent front glass facia (not shown).

My question was probably a bit pointless, whether the original color was actually red but like the red KS fluid used in the fuel and temp gauges had turned to amber with age. It seems like red is a more obvious color -easier to see and matches the red arrow in the Pierce logo on the glass facia and the KS fluid. 85 years on there is probably no way to tell as all of them would have aged, unless there is some blurb in original literature describing the speedometer. I think ’35 was the only year to use this style? The arrow cutout is pretty small, and being translucent in the first place it is probably a bit hard to see in daylight, and it wouldn’t surprise me if some gauges had a black arrow put on top of the hole at some point to be able to see more clearly. Or maybe Pierce changed it late in the model year because of complaints. Right or wrong I redid mine with a translucent red film on the back. When reassembled I have to look pretty close to tell that it is actually red and not black in daylight without the backlighting.

The design is pretty interesting to me. All of my discs have rough splotches of beige paint in different spots on the back. I believe they were to add counterweight balance the disc. to  Except for the paint blobs and translucent films the back side is natural aluminum and the fixed disc underneath was white. There are only very small cracks around the periphery to let the light get under the rotating disc, so reflective back and white is to help bounce the light into the into the narrow space to light up these small translucent bits. All the plastic windows for the indirect lighting on my other gauges are green.

Jim

 

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In the ’34-’35 the knuckle assemblies are listed as 704498. I don’t know how much 836A has to do with 836, but 836A is listed as 705051, and the notes indicate 836A had shorter steering knuckle arms 6 1/4″ center to center holes with 703216/703217 part numbers, but replacements should use the “latest type” used on 840/845 1240/1245 that are longer 7 1/8″, part numbers 704630/704631, so those should be interchangeable.

836A also used that same 704563 center axle. It appears that besides the steering knuckles the only difference in the 836A was different wheel bearings. The brake parts are all listed as the same part numbers between 836A and 840/845 1240/1245. For example the front right brake assembly is listed as 704604.

I am guessing that as long as the distance between left and right spring mount holes are the same that complete axle assemblies would  interchange.

Jim

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Bill, I don’t know if this helps. Trying to interpret the ’34-’35 parts book, the part number for the whole front axle assembly with brakes is 704613.

Something listed as “axle, center” is 704563. I am speculating that is the actual axle forging, but don’t know. If you have ’33 part numbers for specific items we could compare to the ’34-’35 parts.

Jim

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Better late than never? I just refinished my faceplate and tried several alternatives to getting the raised art deco streamline patterns to show. I tried painting over the whole thing then tried to polish off the high spots with chrome polish and rubbing compound with a very flat dense foam block. The compounds wouldn’t remove the paint, at least not in any practical time frame. I then tried removing by slightly damping the foam block with lacquer thinner and carefully wiping along the lines – close but no cigar. I tried wiping with vaseline before painting to create a release coat, my hand wasn’t steady enough. I then tried masking with painters tape but being opaque and comparatively thick I couldn’t cut out the low spots with any accuracy.

What worked was using plain old cellophane scotchtape to mask.

The steps:

1) polish the streamlines with chrome polish. I found a Dremel helped initially but the chrome plate is so thin that it could take very little of that treatment before seeing copper. Most of it was done by hand with a rag. I think the dark brownish green color was actually anodize as lacquer thinner did not remove it, but the polishing step did.

2) mask over high spots with scotch tape. the scotch tape is clear and very thin and easily cuts with a fresh #11 X-acto blade. The edges of the raised lines are just thick enough to aid in the X-acto following the edge. Very tedious needing a steady hand and a magnifier if you don’t have near-sighted natural magni-vision like me. However, the process only took about an hour and a half once started.

3) Paint, let dry

4) remove tape – also tedious.

The whole process including unsuccessful experimentation took about three hours excepting a couple hours to let paint dry.

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It is just a cheat to make it look like it woks. You cut a piece off the little red tube that comes strapped to a can of WD40 and drop it into the glass. You chose what level you want to see based on the length cut. Of course it doesn’t read fuel level but will stay red. Then you track miles on the odometer to refuel.
I haven’t given up and this round on KS has given me another idea to keep one working, but will be awhile before I have a driving car to try it out.

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Similiar to Greg, I had the fluid in my KS gauge go from bright red to clear suddenly in a two week period after bring fine for several months. It was sitting in the garage out of the car after testing the system.
Y’all may recall that I started a test of KS fluid color loss a few years ago trying to figure out what was causing it. It is still a head scratcher. I put samples of fluid obtained from Classic and Exotic and Mac’s into glass vials. Some were exposed with only simple glass covers, others had UV blocking glass. After my nephew suggested it was likely a reaction with the copper in the tube and brass reservoir I dropped some copper and brass bits in new samples. Those turned from bright red to more brownish fairly quickly after, but not clear.
I had all the samples hanging outside my garage for a year and a half in the intense high desert sun. None of them turned clear, the red became darker. So it remains a mystery. The fluid I had in the gauge that suddenly did turn had been stored in its black light blocking bag but was about 15 years old when I finally took it out.
As Greg says the seal between sending unit and gauge is critical, but another piece of the puzzle is the sending unit in the tank which has very tiny holes and tiny tubes that must transport air bubbles down the tubes and under the air dome to recharge the air dome when the tank is sloshed around. If the holes are plugged it won’t recharge. On my sending unit the tiny hole under the air dome was blocked with fuel varnish. I say air bubbles, but in reality they are fuel vapor bubbles. I suspect that the reason the air line loses pressure even with a perfect seal after sitting for awhile is some of fuel vapor in the dome reliquifies. The repair instructions for the gauge say to remove the air tube connection at the gauge and backflow air to purge any liquid fuel in the airline that would cause erratic readings. I wondered how liquid fuel could even get into the line the way it is set up. I am thinking it is because it is not air, it is fuel vapor and fuel heated up on a hot day drive might condense in the tiny line. My theory of tbe moment.
Jim

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The reason for the King Seally fluid is it is unusual in having a density about 3 times more than water, 4 times more than gasoline and makes it feasible. Basically this is a static manometer, if you used gasoline in the gauge and the difference in height in the tank between empty and full was 12″ you would need a 12″ high gauge in the instrument panel-well actually about 6 inch height based on the total difference in height when the level in the brass reservoir drops as it rises in the glass with a full tank. The amount it drops on the brass tube reservoir behind the glass is the calibration the little rods do.
I have toyed with the idea of leaving the little cap off above the glass tube and adding a small tube stuck in the tip of the glass to allow it to vent outside the gauge to prevent the corrosion. A bit worrisome because the fluid is toxic, but even in the gauge it isn’t sealed so any vapor would eventually leak out anyway. Presumeably the amounts are negligible.
Since I think the majority of guys seem to have given up on making this wacky gauge work anyway, you could dye a fluid and leave it disconnected, or use the WD40
red tube trick. I talked to some Ford guys who also give the advice that they can’t keep them working. I haven’t given up yet, but I also don’t have a car I can drive to get the experience.

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The wires are to calibrate the gauge, if you get them out just make sure you put them back. The total crosssection and of the wires adjusts how much fluid drops in the brass reservoir and rises in the glass. It allows a standard gauge to be adjusted to different tank configurations of different cars.
I used lacquer thinner.

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You might also look at McMaster Carr. I found good matches for both my trunk lid and upper door bulb seals.

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Richard, welcome to the club. The 91 octane won’t be any more potent, ir just means it could tolerate a much higher compression ratio without knocking. The engine originally would have been running on something like 70 octane. The potential problem with 91 octane even if it is alcohol free is that it likely has more of the volatile petroleum fractions that can give vapor lock problems, which is also a problem with ethanol blends. Hard to predict, so regardless I would stay close to home in hot weather to see how it runs. Worst case is usually trying to restart and run after the car has been warmed up for awhile on a hot day then shut down for 10-30 minutes. This can be tested at home.

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These cars were not perfectly symetrical, but the nail strips generally have enough give to work them on the car for final adjustments. Bending them on the plywood forms wasn’t a precision art. The leaded joints where the panels were welded together are a real mess.

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