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It has been more than a year since this topic was discussed but maybe worth resurrecting.
I finally reached the point of replacing the insulation on the firewall of my ’35 and found higher density fiberglass batting that seems like a fair substitute for the thick Kapoc batt that is stuffed up in that space above the firewall. I think I will also use it for the insulation between the two metal firewall panels to replace the Kapok. It is much denser than the usual low density fiberglass batts. I got it from McMaster-Carr and rolls and stuffs nicely:
Very-High-Temperature Sheeting
Temperature Range: 0° to 1000° F
Heat Flow Rate (K-Factor) @ 75° F: 0.26
Density: 2.4 lbs./cu. ft.
Color: Gray to brown
Whether it’s for industrial furnaces or other extreme-heat applications, lightweight fiberglass sheeting can handle the heat. Can be used outdoors with metal jacketing. Meets ASTM E84 25/50 for flame and smoke.
That’s a neat trick. I really need to learn to do basic welding! Bought one over ten years ago but reticent to learn how to use it.
I got the cup out by turning the arms of a small three arm puller to the outside to engage the cup edge, put a deep socket down the middle to keep the arms forced outward and pressed it out. I used the same trick as mentioned for the cones above to push the new ones in: cut a slot in one of the old cups and used it to bear against the new cup to protect while tapping it in.
regards, Jim
Bill. I was facing the same problem around Christmas. I did the trick of using the old split bearing cone to drive the new one on, but I have a small press that is just barely long enough with a bit of finness to press them on. The press was cheap (okay, it was from Harbor Freight) but does the occasional job like this well enough.
The biggest problem I had was getting the outside cup out of the housing.
Good luck! Jim
Thanks, hadn’t thought of the biscuit idea for the mortise and tenon joint, that is pretty straight forward and could work really well. One of those “why I didn’t think of that””? thanks!
The thought of ammonia to soak the wood leaves the worry of whether it will leave a bad smell for a long time in a closed car. That might be the process the company I provided the link to uses (I haven’t yet bought any to try it out).
Jim”
Looks very nice and well matched.
I added lap belts a decade ago and years after our daughter was mostly grown up and spent many trips loose. It was a bit of a challenge building up a structure to anchor the rear belts in the center since it was never designed for seat belts.
The front seats of these cars are problematic, no dash padding or collapsing steering column so lap belts are limited improvement. I am planning to install shoulder harnesses in the fronts of my ’35 and lap belts in the back. An advantage of sedans and coupes having pillars to anchor the things to.
Jim
Your right, 3 coats is what should be done for maximum effectiveness. Its kind of gilding the lily anyway, in reality I don’t think any painting does much as long as these cars aren’t left out for prolonged periods in the weather. To quote the Forest Service Handbook: Paints and varnishes are not used primarily to prolong the life of wood. Ordinary paints and varnishes are ineffective preservatives against decay fungi…Exterior woodwork that stays reasonably dry, except for wetting of its exposed surfaces by rain or snow for short times does not decay, but if left uncoated, will weather.
When I was younger trying to do everything “right” I “over-restored” by applying 3 coats, primarily because this gave 90+% effectiveness in reducing the rate of moisture change in the wood, i.e. the wood might gain moisture and stretch if assembled in dry Nevada and then spent months in the humid south. I don’t worry about that any more, and coating it is more a feel good thing. More important to seal the openings where moisture can ingress and get trapped such as the trunk hinge bolt holes above where moisture accumulated in 2 decades left outside in Wisconsin winters.
Ed, thanks you’re right. After putting on my 3.50 magnifier reading glasses and poking at it I discovered I wasn’t looking at a rusted steel retainer but the dried gasket itself. A nail sticking up between the wood and the gasket misled me to think it was nailed in, and the woodgrain of the steel window reveal backing it up must have transferred to the gasket making it look like surface rust. The inner plastic layer of the window of course was disintegrated but I managed to get the two thin glass panes out intact after breaking up the gasket.
Dis-assembling without causing more damage is always a problem, particularly when dealing with wood framed cars where the framework was glued and screwed from the outside before assembling the sheet metal to it.
Thanks for your help!
Jim
The temperature regulator was installed on more cars than Pierce, senior Packards among them. I have the SAE technical paper by the engineer who originally developed it. Indeed, its purpose was to warm the oil up in winter and cool it on hot days – maintaining within a closer range of temperature.
My first one leaked, my second one has been fine for 30 years – maybe. Years ago I put peak temperature indicators on the goes-in pipe and goes-out pipe on a 400 mile 65 mph 90 degree+ summer drive down I-80 and I-5. The max temperature in was the same as the temp out – in other words the oil temp was pretty much the same as the water temp and water wasn’t doing much to cool the oil. Multi-vis oil solves the cold start/run issue, so seems prudent to bypass it.
Reminds me of another 1930’s SAE paper I have somewhere with some interesting tests and analysis of oil cooling and other means to cool the bearings. Its been a few decades and mean to dig it out again but the conclusions were somewhat non-intuitive with some interesting insight on bearing failures with high speed driving.
Jim
I’ve used 50/50 mix of distilled water only with glycol (usually traditional Prestone) without problem for 30+ years. No corrosion inhibitors and several years between changes. Includes my Packard driven ~1000 miles a year. Only significant corrosion I’ve had is with my nearly all-aluminum Alfa Romeo that’s been my daily driver for 36 years (wet steel cylinders in alum block and head).
My big cooling issues shave been where something in the system – heater core or head- haven’t been thoroughly cleaned out and blocked the upper tubes. 2 out of my 6 cars have Tefba filters because of this, and by the way, I really liked Jack’s super Tefba style filter with magnets. I’ll be doing something similar on my Pierce when I get to that point.
Currently I am lucky in that none of my engines have aluminum head with cast iron block which I don’t doubt would require a lot more frequent changes and corrosion inhibitors due to the large areas of dissimilar metal in the coolant circuit. Spent an interesting weekend a long time ago getting Packard V-12 aluminum cylinder heads unstuck from the block due to corrosion around the studs. I think someone had used nothing but river or dirty well water in it for years, the cylinder jackets were totally packed with sand.
What I like about distilled is that I know what’s not in it.
Jim
Nice to see this old friend again. Back in 1980 I was looking for a Classic to restore, what I wanted was either a 32-37 senior Packard or a 29-35 Pierce. The first car I considered was actually a ’36 Pierce club sedan in very rough condition I found in Hemmings. This ’37 was the closest thing Harrahs had to it and I use to go down to stare at it trying to convince myself a ’36 with pontoon fenders was close enough to what I wanted. The museum would close at 6:00 and if I went down after 5:00 they would let me in without paying. I loved the interior and dash of this car, but really wanted a 35 or earlier because the flowing reverse curve fenders were (and are) a big deal to me and ’35 was the last year for that for Pierce. Great to see this car is still out there looking great and hopefully will find a good home.
I had the problem of 18″tubes supposedly fitting 7:00 17 a few years ago. The tube was too large and ended up with some folds that resulted in two simultaneous flats on two brand new tires. Did lots of searching and found a 16.5 radial tube and they have worked fine for several years. I had an original 1935 Goodyear tube still on my Pierce, didn’t hold air anymore but had been a vastly better tube. It had a run flat safety double tube-in-a-tube and was very heavily reinforced where it contacted the wheel. Probably never see those made again. Jim
Jim
I have been fussing over the colors to paint my ’35, and can say that I at least cannot tell from color chips or even large sheets how a car will look unless you actually paint it on the car. It is amazing how different the impression of a color is on the car than looking at a sample. I just painted a second variation of one color that was nearly indistinguishable from sheet metal strips painted the two colors as mixed. On the car the difference is striking. I now have had 10 different color samples mixed for the body color and two for the belt moldings. I have 5 different areas of the body painted with different combinations to compare. I think I finally have a combination I am happy with, but going by color chips alone would have created a very unfortunate combination.
To be truly authentic make sure there are plenty of runs in the paint, don’t fill in the mill scale pits or grind down the weld splatter. At first I thought the pits in my ’35 were rust but when I sanded down there was original red lead primer in the pits. I think the bare parts were sprayed with red lead primer but the final black was done after at least partial assembly. There are places such as under the spring hangers that the black was shadowed out with only red showing, so apparently the final paint coat on the frame was done after the springs were installed. The original chassis paint looks like it was a quick job done with plenty of runs when at least partially assembled. For those getting their cars judged, perhaps there should be a point deduction for chassis finished too well.
Having only a single car to study, I have wondered whether the earlier cars were finished better underneath but standards suffered as the company sank towards bankruptcy in the mid ’30’s.
Re the mechanical complexity of Packard valve train vs Pierce. The question was asked above!
When I first started looking for a car to restore in 1980 I was interested in either Packard or Pierce, love them both. I have unjustifiable prejudices against Cadillac but not 2 of the 3 “P’s’. I found the Pierce I am currently working on before the ’36 Packard but the owner decided not to sell so I waited ten years and after my Packard restoration before getting it. It will be a few years before the Pierce is done so I can do a driving comparison. First I will say that my Packard has never failed to start in 30 years using 6V and original points and coil (except when I let the non-optima battery go dead from sitting too long – knock on wood). In the Packard Club of course I hear lots of snide comments about so and so’s Pierce that never starts. Probably has nothing to do with it being a Pierce.
The reason for the more complicated roller valve followers on Packard is of course to reduce wear on the camshaft. A nice attribute now that ZDDP has been eliminated from common engine oils since flat tappet engines can have problems without ZDDP. Of course the newest post-modern cars (modern cars are 1960’s) have reverted to more complicated roller followers for this reason. Engines with high loading, high piston speeds, and long life requirements usually have roller followers including WWII aircraft and Diesel engines. A problem with the simplest form of roller follower attached directly to the valve tappet is the high side loading put on the tappet guide. The swinging roller arm of the Packard 8 eliminates that side load and uneven wear of the tappet guide that occurs with simple flat tappets. That design dated to 1923 and is very long lived and reliable. The 1933 hydraulic tappet design of Pierce was very innovative and of course won out over the more complicated valve silencer arrangement of the Packard V-12.
I am eager to get my Pierce with it’s hydraulic lifters and 3 stage exhaust system going to compare with my Packard 8. Those hydraulic lifters with flat tappets are of concern, however. My engine was partially rebuilt in the 1960’s and based on what I have seen so far I don’t have a lot of confidence that the lifters were kept in their original positions. Typically of course with used cams and lifters, one is supposed to keep lifters on the same cam position as they originally wore in with to keep from having additional wear, possibly through the case-hardening. The saving grace is that it seems unlikely it will be driven more than 10,000 miles before the end of time. At any rate, It would be a couple less issues if the Pierce had roller followers a la Packard.
So there you have it, a blatant unapologetic heretic! Sometimes feel like a Quaker in a Southern Baptist convention!
Jim
David, thanks! I’ll check out the Onan condensers, maybe the best solution.
Jim
Thanks Ed, that helps. Might be a few years yet before I would be able to contribute any experience, I am repairing the rear trunk surround wood, then it is trunk lid framing, some rear body repairs before re-mounting the body and dealing with doors, all before the engine/trans (counted in years).
I tried to install a Pertronix drop-in kit on my Alfa a few years ago and it simply didn’t fit. Tried to install both a Pertronix and a Mallory complete distributor into my 440 Chrysler and they didn’t fit (trying to avoid previous bad distributor rebuilds and amazingly poor new-built points). Finally put a Pertronix drop-in kit in a rebuilt distributor. It fit and so far (
It is a challenge and a bit of fun trying to get the right colors. I decided that the only way to get a real feel was to paint part of the car. Years ago (sorry, Packard again) I started with a plastic model and mixed model paints to experiment and get what looked right. I then had some original Ditzler mixed of a factory color formula that was quite close to what I came up with on the model. Looked good on sheet metal bits dipped in the paint, but then when I sprayed part of the car it wasn’t quite right -too “fleshy” i.e. “warm”. Then had a few other factory colors mixed (from Ditzler formulas). One was a metallic green-teal that was stunning in the can and on a metal sheet, but when sprayed on the part of the car it was obvious it would have looked garish and stuck out like a sore thumb. Ditched that and went back to the beiges all painted on the back end of my parts car. It took a few more iterations, and the result was a light but still conservative color in the vein of the beautiful ’35 coupe above. If anyone were to whine that my color is too light and not “correct” (haven’t done it to my face), I have a color magazine ad showing a car pretty darn close to that color.
Most of these cars were originally dark colors – no argument. I think the impression of color has a lot to do with how close you are standing to the car. Close up a well done dark color looks incredibly deep and beautiful, but from a distance that is less of an impression than the overall lines of the car. I feel that dark monotones tend to hide the beautiful flowing lines and lighter colors are better from a distance, if not up close. Since I am more concerned with how the car looks on the road for people who are amazed at seeing a relic out in the traffic rather than on a show field of critics, I gravitate towards lighter colors.
One of the things I like about the ’35 P-A was that there were a few somewhat unusual factory options for the belt moldings to be a lighter color than the base, and that really can accentuate the lines of the car such as the ’35 coupe above. Trick is getting the right amount of contrast. I had the original P-A Patricia Blue/Alpha Blue combination mixed with Ditzler years ago, as well as the two-tone green combination (Moss green light and dark). Unfortunately, when you get away from the basic blacks, almost black blues, and almost black greens most ’30’s factory colors tend to be “muddy”. Not my term but the comment of the guy mixing the paints for me. We have a choice of being historically accurate or highlighting the design of these cars as things of beauty and a joy forever. I have always admired the lines of these cars, particularly ’33-35, and feel it was an unfortunate slap to the loftsman who carved out those flowing surfaces that they were penalized with a trend of those years for “muddy” colors. I have more respect for the designers and engineers than the production manager at Pierce who chose the simple monotone blue to slap on the car to minimize cost for cars they were “dumping” in Wisconsin (a surprising number of ’35’s were in Wisconsin).
I am still futzing with my ’35 P-A colors. Pulled the body back into the garage after being covered up for a couple months outside while dealing with the rear axle and springs. It has three different combinations of body/belt molding colors and my favorite from a few months ago doesn’t look right anymore, so back to the paint store.
Jim
I have started to consider going to Petronix on my ’35 even though I have a stash of left and right hand points for the original. I agree that the originals work just fine, but the fear is bad condensers. Finally put a Petronix in my ’66 Chrysler after the new condenser failed after a few years, then the cheap new points lasted less than a year and a few hundred miles before wearing down to zero gap (yes, the cam had lube). I have had several problems with new manufacture condensers over the years, and unfortunately condensers are one of the things that age can effect so getting an 80 year old NOS condenser probably wouldn’t be trustworthy either. I think the choice boils down to whether you have a set of good points of old manufacture and a reliable (how do you tell?) condenser. My Packard has done well for 30 years on its original 1936 coil and a 1980’s installed condenser except when I burned the points mis-remembering correct spark plug gap (duh!). My fear is the coil and I carry a back-up coil in the car that I have yet to need.
Bill, your carriage bolt scheme would have worked on my bearing cups, good idea, will keep it in mind for the challenges to come!
I feel your pain (sorry for the cliché!) finding the pits in your worm pinion. I was holding my breath when I drained my ’35 and was lucky that oil came out and no water. After pulling the cover the teeth all looked beautiful, so I really lucked out there.
Replacing the rear axle bearings wasn’t without challenge however. Kept making new shims to add as I seemingly couldn’t get any axial clearance when I bolted up the left side. Finally realized the axle housing land must not be quite square and it was binding the bearing whenever the bearing housing was tightened up. My ’35 had about 60,000 miles on it and it was the bearing cup that was being pre-loaded in that direction that had failed. The preload also coincided with the side reacting the weight of the car, so that is probably what caused the premature failure. Maybe was the final straw that caused it to be parked in 1948.
Hope you have good luck with Bob Jacobsen’s worm assembly!
Jim
Bill, interesting. Noted the pullers for 31-32 Pierce for the “specialized shop”!
Just had more fun with rear wheel bearings. After inspecting the rear differential which was a thing of beauty and a joy forever, thought I might get by with good rear axle bearings. No such luck, so had to pull them. After looking through PASB’s apparently some of you guys can punch out roller bearing cups banging away at a 45 degree angle (or I am missing something). At any rate I’m not that good and prone to pounding on my hand instead of the punch, so I ended up grinding the legs down of a small 3-leg puller and used it inside out and backwards to grab the bearing cup at the three machined indents in the hub. Seems like there should be an adaptable puller out there for this, but I couldn’t find one.
