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Thanks, I got the lifter block out. I am trying to get the engine and drivetrain working well before doing the bodywork, so I am hoping to get it quiet before resorting to STP or thick oil. I don’t have any fenders or hood on the car so it is easy to see and get to them now. I tried something else that worked okay. After getting the lifter block loose and tilted out from under the valve stems and still resting at an angle on the cam I pulled each tappet out of its cam follower bore, keeping each one in its own marked bag to keep from getting them mixed up. I screwed short bolts and washers into a short piece of rubber fuel line that created a bit of a taper fit and I jammed them into each cam follower bore. That had enough tension to keep the bolt and washer attached to the cam followers preventing them from dropping out of the block as I pulled it out of the engine.
When the engine was running there was a lot more oil coming out of #11 and 12, and much less out of #9. Now that they are out I did a quick test to see if 11 or 12 seemed to be obviously leaking more than 9 using the bubble test described by the factory in the PASB’s. Nothing very definitive. I had already done a lot of cleaning and bubble testing when I assembled the engine a year and a half ago and had lapped the seat and replaced the check balls on a couple. Will do more diagnosis next weekend.
Jim
Keeping enthusiasm up to finish is very difficult. The amount of time and treasure huge and impossible to justify practically, particularly if the car is worth a lot more in parts than whole. The “eating the elephant by taking one bite at a time” metaphor being apropos. Being a rare and very desirable body style Richard’s car likely is worth enough to pay back the investment in money if not time.
A friend of mine lost all ambition years ago after paying for poor machine shop work from supposed experts. He is disillusioned about having any work done by “professionals”. He has piles of multiple cars torn down.
Personally I am always at the edge of that point – when I did my Packard 30 years ago part of what kept me going was the people who saw the pile of rusty parts too polite to say what they are thinking – this guy will never finish this. That kept me going as much as anything. Having proved it once on a rougher car, I don’t have that incentive on my P-A.
Jim
I was heavily influenced by the Virgil Exner ’66 Classic revival series, particularly the P-A and they were a big factor of in my interest in mid ’30’s Classics. Most of them were in my view quite ugly when you got to the full model as opposed to the basic side views of the picture on the box. The ’66 Pierce looked great to me from all angles. The ’66 Bugatti was the also very good looking and I finally found one of those models unbuilt a few years ago. I have the remains of a ’66 P-A kit I built in the 60’s and an unbuilt kit I found on Ebay a few years ago.
I once scaled the measurements of the P-A and found it would have been about 22′ long for what amounts to a 4 seat club sedan!
I have had idle thoughts at times that a mid ’70’s Datsun 240 or 280Z could be modified into smaller reasonable facsimile that could be a pretty nice car.
Jim
Sorry one more item to add, but this come from total ignorance on ’29 carburetors. If there is a “power booster” or “economizer” valve that opens at high throttle – it possibly could be stuck open or otherwise messed up or misadjusted. That valve opens to richen the mixture quite significantly on the order of 10/1 air/fuel for maximum power. That is rich enough to generate soot but the car would run smoothly without any obvious problems like missing.
Unless everything is just plain worn evenly, I would expect broken oil rings or stuck compression rings passing oil to leave plugs with much bigger buildups on some but not others. The buildup on the plugs would probably be uneven compared to rich mixture that would be evenly deposited and more powdery looking.
Burning oil exhaust tends to be a bit blue rather than pure black. As long as the engine is firing evenly ignition advance or retard is a weak influence. If the car is running smoothly without any misses and the exhaust is black, it is most likely rich mixture.
Jim
David, I will have the same problem on my ’35 club rear vents. Put me down for 15 feet.
Thanks!
Jim
There are several tings that can cause too rich a mixture. One is just plain starting and stopping the engine for very short periods without it warming up. Just running it long enough to move it in our out of the garage or around the block instead of driving several miles will build the carbon up.
Another is the choke pulled partially closed or misadjusted. It should be wide open after the engine is warmed up. Another is running without a thermostat (if equipped) or the radiator shutters (if equipped with temperature controlled shutters)are forced open. These items keep the engine from ever warming up in cool temperatures or extend the time it takes to warm up in hot temperatures. I was constantly fouling plugs on a car that I liked to drive around before I had the grille shutters installed that let it warm up.
Carburetor float level too high or float leaking and sinking, or float valve not sealing. Fuel pressure from an auxiliary electric fuel pump too high and overpowering the float valve.
I would check these things before carb jets.
Good luck, Jim
Jim
On evaporative coolers, I believe they appeared much earlier – in the 1930’s at least. A childhood memory of my mentor was cutting his finger on the fan of a window mounted evaporative cooler that his father rented when they moved from the Midwest to California in the late ’30’s, so apparently there were more expensive units with fans that would move air when stopped. Window units had small water tanks in them, but adding ice would reduce the temp for a while (melting ice as about 15% of the cooling effect of evaporating the water).
I am not concerned with adding any holes though the firewall of my Packard or Pierce, they already had them. Both were already cut very crudely presumably by the dealer or perhaps the original owners themselves to plumb aftermarket heaters. In the case of my Packard they cut through a corner of the data plate. Now in terms of originality what counts, the crude hole cut by the original owner to make the car more comfortable, or trying to cover the evidence. Who counts more, the factory as originally delivered, the original owner who actually used the car, or the person who spent a lot more time and money than either resurrecting the beast?
I’m not posing the question in terms of judging, since that is not something I participate in. I admire the skills, time and patience that others have that I don’t to do better than new restorations but my interest is more about the genius of engineering and manufacture that went into these cars. I think we put individual cars on too high a pedestal. An extreme and unrealistic ideal of these cars when new and never touched by an owner seems to be the goal of judging. Of course it would be impossible to set guidelines for some other arbitrary standard, so in the end it is to each his own.
Jim
By the way, a friend of mine drove his family from Nevada back to Warren for the Packard Centennial in his ’53. He has bragging rights but his daughter ended up with heat rash. I feel the hobby should be reasonably fun and less a test of stoicism.
Jim
We were at the 1999 Packard Centennial as well – we were in the “Tent Titanic” that flooded during the banquet. We survived the show field by my brief runs out from under the trees to look at specific cars and riding around in the Packard bus that was the only way to get shade and a breeze. We were at a restaurant and the cashier asked where we were from – when we told her Nevada she commented that we must be use to 99 degree heat. We said, not this heat (with humidity)! Many think our Nevada comments about “dry heat” are a joke. It ain’t! Packard meets always seem to create record setting heat waves.
Jim
A subject guaranteed to generate debate!
Not being afraid to be a bit heretical, I have given a fair amount of thought to AC on my Pierce as I rebuild it. One thing for mods to me is to avoid doing anything that can’t be undone readily. What little I do is based on being able to drive them on the highway. Realistically a future owner likely won’t do more than go around the block occasionally.
Years ago when I was first dating my wife, we went on a Packard tour and ended up stalled in traffic in 90+ degree heat. Not even a fan to stir the air and I watched as sweat dripped off her nose. It is not a goal of my wife to relive past discomforts. Needless to say, I figured we wouldn’t be going on many tours if the situation wasn’t improved. Years ago we survived long family trips cross country without AC, but now it is hard to consider doing it when the modern standard transportation module is at the ready with powerful AC.
I designed and built an evaporative (swamp) cooler with blowers ,water tank and pumps that fit under the dash. The idea being I didn’t have to do major mods for AC that was going to require a condenser that would increase the heat load on the radiator and cause overheating of the engine and cascade to needing a new bigger radiator and fan. I could make 12 volt blower motors work at half speed/half amperage on 6V without requiring adding a 12V alternator.
It was better than nothing, but was too weak. Early this year I spent way too much time building a new evap cooler/heater system for the Packard with 2 more powerful 12v blowers I found at Grainger that can blow directly on our faces. The vents I scavenged out of a ’64 Imperial years ago and the ducts were made locally out of plastic using 3D printing. A melding of generations of technology! Part of the idea was too see if I could make enough improvement to do an evap cooler for the Pierce instead of AC. It is an improvement but of course not nearly as effective as AC. AC remains a challenge: how to get sufficient 12V amperage to run the available AC systems. I don’t contemplate changing to 12V for the car, just adding a second 12V negative ground source and leave the original 6V positive ground system unchanged. How to provide a condenser that doesn’t require bigger non-stock radiator and fan is a big issue. To do that suggests mounting a remote condenser below the original radiator with independent 12V fans to induce flow without blowing warmed up air through the radiator. A lot of hoops to jump through! Not much of a challenge for hot rodders of course, who would drop in a Chevy 350 with 12V alternators, a big radiator and be done with it! Of course I don’t want a Chevy.
At this point it is unlikely I will do it, simply because I am having doubts I will actually ever tour my Pierce that much at this point. At that point I should be retired, and maybe we will have the option to just avoid the heat. Although, next years PAS meet is in Santa Rosa in July. In 2003 the Packard National was in Santa Rosa and we had record heat – 103. My wife accused me of trying to cook her! Jim
Interesting that the setup charge is the big cost and price per piece for multiple pieces becomes fairly small – much like tooling for casting or forging. The cheaper plastic 3D printing is almost the opposite where the setup charge is quite small and the total charge is based on volume of material laid down so a single one-off piece can be done quite reasonably. Hopefully the 3D printing in metal will start heading that direction.
Jim L, that’s really interesting, keep us posted how it works out. Obviously this could be a big deal for restoration and I understand your comments about the desirability for the Foundation to have a 3D scanner. Lots of art deco intricate detail parts on Pierce-Arrows to try and reproduce!
Jim C.
When painting into recessed areas like grooves and raised letters, sometimes it can be done by shooting with airbrush or spray, then carefully polish off the paint from the high spots with a flat block and compound. This can also be done by brush and polishing out the goofs from the high areas, which is how I usually end up doing it.
Ideally one has the skills to do it by hand with no goofs, but I don’t.
Jim
Bill, the arm is the same as my ’35 845. It was attached with a chrome or SS nut. The picture is from my ’35 Pierce. The same arm was used on senior Packards and I imagine was a standard Trico part. Irv Blonder reproduced these years ago and one pair is on my Packard (another still awaits my Pierce). Before investing the time to have them reproduced you might check with Dave Murray or vendors for other marques.
Jim
Robert, I was going on about this on the message board a year ago on my ’35 with 3 mufflers. The only source I found for really long mufflers was Waldrons and it took 6 months or so to get them. The ’35 has 3 mufflers of straight through design for minimal back pressure. I don’t know if your ’32’s long single is of similar straight through design, but if it is and you order from Waldrons you might consider the more “aggressive” noise level as the standard I got is not straight through and has some baffling in it that will cause a little backpressure. Maybe Greg Long or someone has some experience to lend with the long singles. I would expect the internal baffling to be a bigger factor on backpressure than the pipe diameter, but Waldrons’ for one does not offer internal construction details of there long rounds.
My intermediate muffler I also got from Summit and it was pretty close to a straight through design heavy duty truck muffler. They don’t come in anything close to 48″ length, but it should be feasible to order a couple, cut them and weld them.
Jim
I am wondering how much of this problem over the years is really from air entrainment or foaming of antifreeze. I have spent some time theorizing about the heat balance and the effect of a restrictor plate on making a car run cooler, but it occurred to me that it could be much more basic than that.
Pierce’s seem to be well known for having a lot of flow and pressure out of their water pumps. I put a thermostat with some small holes in my 845 for initial startup before the shutters are installed. The backpressure blew through the water manifold gaskets – first cork then silicone Ultra. I’ve never had this happen before.
On the flow side, if the Pierce radiator tubes were marginal in simply handling the design pump flowrate to start with when new, then any restriction in the radiator such as minor gunk coating or plugging of tubes, or tubes tied off to solve leaks, will back the high flow rate up into the upper tank and overflow. Once several quarts are lost less of the radiator becomes effective and overheating can result.
Just a thought.
Jim
Once the thermostat is fully open it shouldn’t matter what its temp opening is. If you are overheating pulling a long grade and the temperature is over 200 it should be fully open and doesn’t matter what temperature it became fully opened. The higher opening temperature just means it will delay the thermostat opening and get to the point of overheating sooner. Sorry, that’s confusing. I wouldn’t count on the water temperature having much influence on the temperature promoting atomization. The main advantage as far as I am concerned with running a hotter thermostat is reducing the wall quenching during combustion that leads to more carbon deposits in the cylinder. A study years ago indicated cylinder wear was significantly greater with 160 degree coolant than 180.
Probably a bigger factor in whether a thermostat helps or hurts overheating is how much restriction there is when it is fully open. It is a balancing act between more flow picking up more heat in the engine which the radiator must reject. If the amount of cooling air through the radiator is the limiting factor then more coolant flow increases the heat picked up by the engine that the radiator must reject with its finite amount of cooling air. The many discussions over the years in the PASB’s where members put restrictions into the water passage to reduce temperatures suggests that is often the case for Pierce Arrows.
Jim
While on the subject of repro rubber, I had bought the repro piece that fits through the column, brake, and clutch pedal shafts at the toe board from Steele. It didn’t fit my ’35, I think they may say the same part fits ’33-’35, so maybe what they copied was from a ’33 that is different?
Fortunately my original – with Pierce and the part number molded in – was useable if not like new.
Also, the repro’s for this piece and the gearshift/parking brake grommet don’t have the soft metal plate of the original, so a metal piece needs to be fabricated to bond to the back side of these.
Jim
The following is from the abstract of the SAE report describing the development of the kick shackle in 1929 which I think highlights how complex the problem is and that low pressure tires were a big part of the issue.
“BEGINNING with a review of the effects of the almost simultaneous adoption of balloon tires and front-wheel brakes, the authors outline the dynamic conditions of the front-axle system of the conventional car. They show that two types of vibration, otherwise independent of each other, are coupled together by gyroscopic forces when the wheels are rotating. The effect is greatly to lower the frequency, so it can come into synchronism within the speeds at which the car is driven. Shackling the front springs at the front end reduces the error in steering geometry, but cannot always entirely eliminate shimmy and wheel kick. A solution was found by adding a cushioned bracket at the rear end of the left front spring. This introduces damping, because of a phase difference between the gyroscopic forces and the elastic and friction forces, thus eliminating shimmy and at the same time reducing the reaction at the steering-gear to an amount so small that no kick is felt at the steering-wheel rim. Further analysis of shimmy is given in the discussion, and two speakers state that independent springing of the front wheels seems to be the only sure cure. Another speaker reports that independent springing has proved unpopular in Europe, where it has been most extensively tried.”
I suspect the potential advantage of the independent suspension was being able to avoid the fore and aft plus lateral tilt of a fixed axle as it deflects a leaf spring that in turn gets fed back into the steering gear.
Bill, of the SAE papers you have, can you recommend any others that describe the issues well? The quote from the abstract above is from SAE 290005 that I will order now that my interest has been retweaked.
Daydreaming on how the geometry dynamics interplay suggests many things that could potentially effect shimmy problems, including the arch of the spring. I don’t know that this will lead to anything practically useful.
Thanks, Jim
I can imagine that lower pressure tires are likely a big contributor. The lower pressure creates a wider footprint which increases the steering moments from side to side as the tire turns. My ’36 Packard with 700-17 tires tracks nicely if I keep the pressure above ~33 psi, doesn’t shimmy but does follow the ruts if I let the front pressure drop much below that. It is enough pressure that I tend to wear the tread in the middle before the sides.
Jim
