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By the way, a friend of mine drove his family from Nevada back to Warren for the Packard Centennial in his ’53. He has bragging rights but his daughter ended up with heat rash. I feel the hobby should be reasonably fun and less a test of stoicism.
Jim
We were at the 1999 Packard Centennial as well – we were in the “Tent Titanic” that flooded during the banquet. We survived the show field by my brief runs out from under the trees to look at specific cars and riding around in the Packard bus that was the only way to get shade and a breeze. We were at a restaurant and the cashier asked where we were from – when we told her Nevada she commented that we must be use to 99 degree heat. We said, not this heat (with humidity)! Many think our Nevada comments about “dry heat” are a joke. It ain’t! Packard meets always seem to create record setting heat waves.
Jim
A subject guaranteed to generate debate!
Not being afraid to be a bit heretical, I have given a fair amount of thought to AC on my Pierce as I rebuild it. One thing for mods to me is to avoid doing anything that can’t be undone readily. What little I do is based on being able to drive them on the highway. Realistically a future owner likely won’t do more than go around the block occasionally.
Years ago when I was first dating my wife, we went on a Packard tour and ended up stalled in traffic in 90+ degree heat. Not even a fan to stir the air and I watched as sweat dripped off her nose. It is not a goal of my wife to relive past discomforts. Needless to say, I figured we wouldn’t be going on many tours if the situation wasn’t improved. Years ago we survived long family trips cross country without AC, but now it is hard to consider doing it when the modern standard transportation module is at the ready with powerful AC.
I designed and built an evaporative (swamp) cooler with blowers ,water tank and pumps that fit under the dash. The idea being I didn’t have to do major mods for AC that was going to require a condenser that would increase the heat load on the radiator and cause overheating of the engine and cascade to needing a new bigger radiator and fan. I could make 12 volt blower motors work at half speed/half amperage on 6V without requiring adding a 12V alternator.
It was better than nothing, but was too weak. Early this year I spent way too much time building a new evap cooler/heater system for the Packard with 2 more powerful 12v blowers I found at Grainger that can blow directly on our faces. The vents I scavenged out of a ’64 Imperial years ago and the ducts were made locally out of plastic using 3D printing. A melding of generations of technology! Part of the idea was too see if I could make enough improvement to do an evap cooler for the Pierce instead of AC. It is an improvement but of course not nearly as effective as AC. AC remains a challenge: how to get sufficient 12V amperage to run the available AC systems. I don’t contemplate changing to 12V for the car, just adding a second 12V negative ground source and leave the original 6V positive ground system unchanged. How to provide a condenser that doesn’t require bigger non-stock radiator and fan is a big issue. To do that suggests mounting a remote condenser below the original radiator with independent 12V fans to induce flow without blowing warmed up air through the radiator. A lot of hoops to jump through! Not much of a challenge for hot rodders of course, who would drop in a Chevy 350 with 12V alternators, a big radiator and be done with it! Of course I don’t want a Chevy.
At this point it is unlikely I will do it, simply because I am having doubts I will actually ever tour my Pierce that much at this point. At that point I should be retired, and maybe we will have the option to just avoid the heat. Although, next years PAS meet is in Santa Rosa in July. In 2003 the Packard National was in Santa Rosa and we had record heat – 103. My wife accused me of trying to cook her! Jim
Interesting that the setup charge is the big cost and price per piece for multiple pieces becomes fairly small – much like tooling for casting or forging. The cheaper plastic 3D printing is almost the opposite where the setup charge is quite small and the total charge is based on volume of material laid down so a single one-off piece can be done quite reasonably. Hopefully the 3D printing in metal will start heading that direction.
Jim L, that’s really interesting, keep us posted how it works out. Obviously this could be a big deal for restoration and I understand your comments about the desirability for the Foundation to have a 3D scanner. Lots of art deco intricate detail parts on Pierce-Arrows to try and reproduce!
Jim C.
When painting into recessed areas like grooves and raised letters, sometimes it can be done by shooting with airbrush or spray, then carefully polish off the paint from the high spots with a flat block and compound. This can also be done by brush and polishing out the goofs from the high areas, which is how I usually end up doing it.
Ideally one has the skills to do it by hand with no goofs, but I don’t.
Jim
Bill, the arm is the same as my ’35 845. It was attached with a chrome or SS nut. The picture is from my ’35 Pierce. The same arm was used on senior Packards and I imagine was a standard Trico part. Irv Blonder reproduced these years ago and one pair is on my Packard (another still awaits my Pierce). Before investing the time to have them reproduced you might check with Dave Murray or vendors for other marques.
Jim
Robert, I was going on about this on the message board a year ago on my ’35 with 3 mufflers. The only source I found for really long mufflers was Waldrons and it took 6 months or so to get them. The ’35 has 3 mufflers of straight through design for minimal back pressure. I don’t know if your ’32’s long single is of similar straight through design, but if it is and you order from Waldrons you might consider the more “aggressive” noise level as the standard I got is not straight through and has some baffling in it that will cause a little backpressure. Maybe Greg Long or someone has some experience to lend with the long singles. I would expect the internal baffling to be a bigger factor on backpressure than the pipe diameter, but Waldrons’ for one does not offer internal construction details of there long rounds.
My intermediate muffler I also got from Summit and it was pretty close to a straight through design heavy duty truck muffler. They don’t come in anything close to 48″ length, but it should be feasible to order a couple, cut them and weld them.
Jim
I am wondering how much of this problem over the years is really from air entrainment or foaming of antifreeze. I have spent some time theorizing about the heat balance and the effect of a restrictor plate on making a car run cooler, but it occurred to me that it could be much more basic than that.
Pierce’s seem to be well known for having a lot of flow and pressure out of their water pumps. I put a thermostat with some small holes in my 845 for initial startup before the shutters are installed. The backpressure blew through the water manifold gaskets – first cork then silicone Ultra. I’ve never had this happen before.
On the flow side, if the Pierce radiator tubes were marginal in simply handling the design pump flowrate to start with when new, then any restriction in the radiator such as minor gunk coating or plugging of tubes, or tubes tied off to solve leaks, will back the high flow rate up into the upper tank and overflow. Once several quarts are lost less of the radiator becomes effective and overheating can result.
Just a thought.
Jim
Once the thermostat is fully open it shouldn’t matter what its temp opening is. If you are overheating pulling a long grade and the temperature is over 200 it should be fully open and doesn’t matter what temperature it became fully opened. The higher opening temperature just means it will delay the thermostat opening and get to the point of overheating sooner. Sorry, that’s confusing. I wouldn’t count on the water temperature having much influence on the temperature promoting atomization. The main advantage as far as I am concerned with running a hotter thermostat is reducing the wall quenching during combustion that leads to more carbon deposits in the cylinder. A study years ago indicated cylinder wear was significantly greater with 160 degree coolant than 180.
Probably a bigger factor in whether a thermostat helps or hurts overheating is how much restriction there is when it is fully open. It is a balancing act between more flow picking up more heat in the engine which the radiator must reject. If the amount of cooling air through the radiator is the limiting factor then more coolant flow increases the heat picked up by the engine that the radiator must reject with its finite amount of cooling air. The many discussions over the years in the PASB’s where members put restrictions into the water passage to reduce temperatures suggests that is often the case for Pierce Arrows.
Jim
While on the subject of repro rubber, I had bought the repro piece that fits through the column, brake, and clutch pedal shafts at the toe board from Steele. It didn’t fit my ’35, I think they may say the same part fits ’33-’35, so maybe what they copied was from a ’33 that is different?
Fortunately my original – with Pierce and the part number molded in – was useable if not like new.
Also, the repro’s for this piece and the gearshift/parking brake grommet don’t have the soft metal plate of the original, so a metal piece needs to be fabricated to bond to the back side of these.
Jim
The following is from the abstract of the SAE report describing the development of the kick shackle in 1929 which I think highlights how complex the problem is and that low pressure tires were a big part of the issue.
“BEGINNING with a review of the effects of the almost simultaneous adoption of balloon tires and front-wheel brakes, the authors outline the dynamic conditions of the front-axle system of the conventional car. They show that two types of vibration, otherwise independent of each other, are coupled together by gyroscopic forces when the wheels are rotating. The effect is greatly to lower the frequency, so it can come into synchronism within the speeds at which the car is driven. Shackling the front springs at the front end reduces the error in steering geometry, but cannot always entirely eliminate shimmy and wheel kick. A solution was found by adding a cushioned bracket at the rear end of the left front spring. This introduces damping, because of a phase difference between the gyroscopic forces and the elastic and friction forces, thus eliminating shimmy and at the same time reducing the reaction at the steering-gear to an amount so small that no kick is felt at the steering-wheel rim. Further analysis of shimmy is given in the discussion, and two speakers state that independent springing of the front wheels seems to be the only sure cure. Another speaker reports that independent springing has proved unpopular in Europe, where it has been most extensively tried.”
I suspect the potential advantage of the independent suspension was being able to avoid the fore and aft plus lateral tilt of a fixed axle as it deflects a leaf spring that in turn gets fed back into the steering gear.
Bill, of the SAE papers you have, can you recommend any others that describe the issues well? The quote from the abstract above is from SAE 290005 that I will order now that my interest has been retweaked.
Daydreaming on how the geometry dynamics interplay suggests many things that could potentially effect shimmy problems, including the arch of the spring. I don’t know that this will lead to anything practically useful.
Thanks, Jim
I can imagine that lower pressure tires are likely a big contributor. The lower pressure creates a wider footprint which increases the steering moments from side to side as the tire turns. My ’36 Packard with 700-17 tires tracks nicely if I keep the pressure above ~33 psi, doesn’t shimmy but does follow the ruts if I let the front pressure drop much below that. It is enough pressure that I tend to wear the tread in the middle before the sides.
Jim
To be fairish and fill out the rest of the picture, doing it the sweat equity way takes a lot of time – you better be determined. I restored a ’36 Packard 30+ years ago basically from 2 very rusty junkyard heaps and lots of other parts obtained at prices less than scalper rates with some patience. I estimated it took me about $25,000 in todays dollars plus ~7000 manhours of my time. It doesn’t win any best of show awards but looks pretty good going down the highway at 65.
I think I am a bit smarter and definitely less fanatical now and could have cut that to 4-5,000 manhours by not doing silly stuff like completely stripping, sandblasting and carefully painting the frame – it was filthy after the first tour. That included replacing 80% of the body wood myself, lots of sandblasting, bodywork, painting it myself, keeping careful reigns on the machine shop to only have them do what was necessary, not “fixing” a transmission that didn’t need fixing, not rebuilding shocks that didn’t need rebuilding, and so forth. The car has been a nice driving, reliable tourer for 30 years.
This twelve looks to be more complete and in better shape, but it is a luck of the draw on what one will find inside. I was lucky with my Packard and so far with my 845 Pierce that the damage from corrosion inside the running gear was limited. There is a natural tendency to try to restore everything to better than new condition, but that really isn’t feasible. The likelihood of anyone taking something apart and rebuilding it to as good as the factory is small. $25,000 for a “professional” engine rebuild versus a few thousand to maybe reduce the risk of a thousand dollar towing bill if something fails on a tour are something to weigh.
I would guess this twelve would be on the order of 3-4000 manhours doing it in a similar fashion. Of course, doing stuff yourself is always a trade between how much money you have to spend versus time. The net value of your time doing “sweat equity” is probably in the single digits dollars/hour.
There are often comments about how wonderful to find a car not “molested” by amateur restorers, but of course many of those cars would never be restored by people just paying out a fortune to have someone else do the work. Closed cars simply have a large negative return on investment. You have to really want the car for your own satisfaction. The ideal find for someone is a car someone else lost their shirt on getting it “professionally” restored, and hope something fundamental wasn’t missed in the process.
The reality is that this twelve – like my 845 – is worth a lot more in parts than as a restored car. It will only be restored by someone looking past the financial realities.
Jim
“Professional”” doing the work is the key issue. If you can do a lot of the work yourself as an “”amateur”” and don’t have dreams of Pebble Beach it can be done for a lot less. Often the “”professionals”” make things worse rather than better on your dime. My first experience 35 years ago with a nationally recognized “”expert”” with a professional restoration business gave me advice that would have resulted in a seized bearing at first start if I hadn’t the time and knowledge to think it through myself.
Be careful out there.
Jim”
I gave some serious thought to this since it is the same body/year as my 845 – so theoretically could mix and match the best bits and end up with a twelve. It looks pretty complete, has a few parts I am missing, but in the end it would be lost time and huge complication to take it on.
A few hours ago I drove my 845 up the cul de sac for the first time. All gears shift well, brakes work well, and did several brief full throttle slams in 2nd and 3rd to start seating the rings. So far it doesn’t seem to be smoking – big relief – so as appealing as a V-12 seems, to much added time! Looks like mine is good enough to continue to the next steps.
I hope someone buys this twelve to restore and not just part it out, it looks like it is probably in better shape overall than what I started with.
I do hope whoever restores it changes the color scheme, by coincidence it is very close to what I am planning!
Jim
My 11th edition is the 1948 “Motors Auto Repair Manual” from 1948 – not difficult to get.
Does someone know if there is a previous series “Motors handbook” that would explain the higher edition number with a 1936 date? I haven’t seen one, but being more contemporary to the years it seems likely to have more information than the 1948.
Jim
I have the 11th edition Motors that covers 1935 through 1947 and has about 1/2 page on adjustments and cutaway of the separate choke for EE-1 and EE-3.
I could scan and send if helpful.
Jim
Well, the last one was written on a piece of tape attached to the inside of the stainless steel water manifold plate, so I had to scratch it off! I’ll keep it in mind as I keep dredging parts up.
Jim
The bolt-on counterweights were less than ideal because holding them on required drilling and threading the crank putting stress concentrations near the main bearing cheeks. It looks like they must be removed to grind the journals. Casting or forging the counterweights integral with the crank as one piece should be better structurally with less chance of fatigue failure.
The later integral counterweights are also symmetric around each con rod instead of just 4 large bolt-ons offset from the centers of mass of the rods and pistons. I think the later crank is a significant design improvement and likely was more expensive rather than less to balance each throw. It is also nice that the counterweights don’t have to be removed to grind the journals.
Do the first eights have counterweights at all? Theoretically an inline eight does not need counterweights to be in balance, the main purpose of the counterweights is to reduce the load on the main bearings from the piston and rod inertia at high RPM, so counterweights became more important as engine RPM’s were pushed higher.
