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First, let me correct my previous info on the combustion leak detector: It is actually Cal-VAN “Leak Check” for detecting combustion leaks, part no. 560, by Cal-Van Tools, Div. of Chemi-trol Chemical Co., 1500 Walter Ave., Fremont OH 43420. It consists of a clear heavy plastic cylinder containing proprietary blue fluid connected by a rubber hose to a rubber stopper. There is also a rubber squeeze bulb at the cylinder end. The instructions say to test on the engine both cold and warmed up. Extra bottles of fluid are Part no. 560-1 and I recommend buying at least one extra bottle.

Second, the more I think about the problem, the more I think that it is an intake leak which becomes apparent to the ear only when the engine is trying to pull in maximum quantities of air–although the leak may exist even at idle, which is why the vacuum gauge + aerosol oil test is still valid. One idea that comes to mind is to re-tighten the manifold nuts while engine is cold, making sure you’ve done ALL of them. Another thought is that if you used one of Fran Olson’s composite-only (no metal covering) manifold gaskets, be advised that he is now selling only metal-sandwich manifold gaskets for Pierce 8s because of performance issues experienced with the composite-only gaskets. New metal-sandwich ones are about $63 each. I bought a few in August and have installed one on my 1934 with perfect results. That car had an Olson composite gasket but the front exhaust port end blew out, and the rear (# port was on its way as found by examination when the old gasket was removed. And the nuts had been snugged by me several times on general principles before the gasket blew out.

You might consider checking vacuum gauge readings before & after snugging the manifold bolts.

Enjoy Florida, Tony!

VBR, George

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Hi Tony,

Although noises are notoriously difficult to describe and to diagnose by e-mail it’s probably valid to first check those components mucked with during the most recent operation, i.e., the valve job.

“Squeal” vs. “whistle”: I tend to think of a ‘squeal’ as a mechanical noise from a fan belt or a dry bearing such as in a generator or fan hub, but a “whistle” as usually from an air leak.

To distinguish between the two, see if you can make it happen with the car in a static position at idle by snapping the throttle–or is a load required such as when underway?

A ‘squeal” from a bearing or belt might be found with a mechanic’s stethoscope or an improvised one made from heater hose or a broomstick (sometimes better than the real tool). If you can duplicate the noise with the car at rest, momentarily run the engine with the belts removed–but you’ve done that. So it may indeed be more of a whistle.

A ‘whistle’, especially under the conditions you describe, would lead me to attach a vacuum gauge to check the intake manifold joints, and the carburetor-to-intake manifold gasket, and other plugs and fittings in the manifolds–including the port to which you’ve attached the vacuum gauge. After noting the initial reading, spray a light oil over those joints/connections and watch for an improvement in the vacuum reading.

You might try a combustion gas detector in your radiator filler neck with the engine running. I have the kind (made by Cal-Tech, about 10-15 years old) that uses a proprietary blue fluid which turns green after a 2-minute exposure to combustion gases in the coolant, which would indicate a head gasket leak or cracked head or block (heaven forfend!)

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

George

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David,

Please look again closely at the marking–if it’s 662-J (as in Juliet), it fits all P-A 8s (including 836A) from 1933 through 1936. (1937-38 8s used 663M, which had a single set of points but also had a vacuum advance.) The 384 might be the unit’s serial number, which usually appears in the space on the ID tag following the model number. I don’t know of any Delco distributors of the period that would have the ‘384’ extension as part of the model number. The 662-J has dual ignition points and centrifugal advance only (no vacuum advance).

George

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Another vendor is Kenneth Johnson of Carmel, IN, who sells on eBay under the username kjcarmel. He has them polished and lacquered. He has the sizes — just tell him the ID of your hose.

It seems to me that the stick hose available in the last few years has a smaller outside diameter (OD) than the stick hose of a few years ago. Suggest you also measure the **OD** of your hose stock and provide that as well.

However, I’ve found that lacquering does not hold up well, and they get pretty funky within a year. I’ve had better luck with polishing regular galvanized 2-wire clamps on a buffer, then spraying them with clear ENAMEL out of a rattle-can from the hardware store.

George

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I suggest that you find a local muffler shop that does custom work, such as on street rods. (Rather than most chain muffler shops, which usually do relatively little custom work.) Talk to them first. See if they will install a muffler you get from Waldron or other vendor, and custom-bend the pipes from scratch for you.

For a touring restoration, I’d use aluminized pipe if available.

George

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Thank you very much, Tony!

George

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Tom,

Sorry to hear about the carb that continues to leak.

Safety concern about dripping gas on exhaust–install the left side splash pan (hard to twist into place) and gas will no longer touch the pipe. To remove or install the left side splash pan, you will have to remove the left front brake rod.

Re leak itself (you may have addressed some or all of these already):

1. Remove float from its chamber (no need to remove carb) and check it carefully for a leak, indicated by gas inside the float — shake the float and listen. If there seems to be none, confirm by heating a pot of water on the stove (short of a boil–maybe 160-180 degrees) and submerging the float entirely, looking for bubbles. (Remove quickly if you see bubbles from float, as gas inside float may expand rapidly and pop the seams.) Leaking float is common due to brass deterioration and will cause overflow that the gasket under the main jet can’t handle.

2. Also check float height adjustment. The two pin-mounted ‘arms’ that bear on the top of the float (to control gas level) wear but can be turned over to give a new round surface if that hasn’t been done before. There’s a gas-level plug on the front side of the carb bowl–with vacuum tank valve turned on, you should get just a few drops of gas when this plug is removed.

3. Original gasket between main jet assembly and carb body was a complicated SINGLE die-cut piece that consisted of two concentric circles with four arc-shaped slots between them to accommodate the holes. I don’t know of any CORRECT reproductions being available, but have always had problems with the common substitute of two separate round gaskets. It will take you 30 minutes with a grade-school compass and an exacto knife to make a suitable gasket.

4. Try a couple of turns of teflon string under the main jet’s gland nut.

Hope some of this helps!

George

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Cal,

My detailed post of more than a year ago on 1930 and 1934 tie rod ends is no longer on the message board. If you have the non-take-apart ends that began in 1929 (some had the earlier take-apart style), you need ES-6 which will fit 1" tie rods with male threads. My post was also reprinted in a Service Bulletin sometime in 2006 or 2007.

I’m about to go out of town on business for a couple of days so I don’t have time to look it up now, but can when I return if someone doesn’t answer in the meantime.

George

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David,

Pierces of that vintage have engine numbers identical to the serial (chassis) numbers (unless it’s a replacement engine), so it may be easier to get that if one of the docents will let you lift the hood — or do so themselves.

Contact Bob Jacobsen for the date and location of our NorCal spring brunch in March–we’d be delighted to have such a distinguished visitor!

George

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David, if you have the Pierce serial number, I can tell you who owns it. I haven’t been to the Towe for a couple of years, at which time the only Pierce was a 1934 840A owned by Dick Ryder.

FYI, the Towe displays / stores cars for collectors for a fee of about $50/month (as of a couple of years ago), which is a lot cheaper than garage rent in this area.

If you have any free time to visit other Pierces in the Bay Area during your Sacramento trips, let Bob Jacobsen or me know–but I won’t be back in town until March 7 (visiting friends in FL after the March 1 Savannah board meeting).

George

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If it’s an original 8-spline, 32-3/8" long, I believe it fits all 1929s and 1930s, plus LATE 1928 81s, per Hollander’s 8th Edition (1938). There are no published serial number points for the Series 81 application. This is Hollander #121 and also fits 1929-31 Studebaker President 8s, serial numbers 6013301-6022000 on the 125" wheelbase, and serial numbers 7013501-7038000 on the 135" wheelbase, and 1929-31 Studebaker truck models GK, GN, 30 and 40.

Suggest you first confirm that you don’t have a newer rear end installed.

1931 Pierces (all series) used a 10-spline axle 31-7/8" long (Hollander #120), which fit nothing else.

1932-38 Pierces used a 10-spline 32-7/8" long (Hollander #220), which fit nothing else.

The 10-spline axles are more robust than the 8-splines, but still have problems, as Bob Jacobsen can attest . Accordingly, at some time in the past, someone may have swapped out the differential to be able to use 10-spline axles.

Best regards,

George

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Joe,

I can’t explain the science but can only give you a personal anecdote.

In preparation for a cross-country trip in my 1936 1601 in 1997, I wanted to assure the most efficient and cool-running lube for my differential. I’d heard rumblings about the effect of sulphur on bronze, so I called the Sta-Lube labs in Los Angeles and spoke with a Ph.D. chemist, whose name I no longer have. He said he saw no possibility of any adverse effects on bronze. So I installed Sta-Lube synthetic (GL-6). Six hundred miles into the trip, I crawled under the rear of the car to see how a leaky shock was faring (it was still leaking), but found the diff TERRIBLY hot. I then exited at the next town, and drained the diff and refilled it with GL-4. The draining GL-6 had the dreaded golden flecks in it, indicating that the bronze was disintegrating. I later re-drained and got only a very small amount of gold flecking, probably due to the residual GL-6 left in the unit after the first drain. The diff was much cooler with the GL-4. Ten years and ten thousand miles later, the diff is OK–but I am personally confident that it would have destroyed itself with the GL-6.

I can only offer the Latin maxim "Quod dubitas non feceris," best translated as "When in doubt, DON’T."

We all love to find modern products that will enhance the performance and longevity of our cars, but I am sworn off GL-5 and GL-6 gear lubes for life as a result of this experience.

Best regards,

George

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That’s SONORA, California, not ‘Sorena.’

George in Calif.

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Syd,

Any petroleum will cause rubber to deteriorate. I think vellumoid paper would have been sufficient to seal, unless the cover was warped–in which case it should be machined flat.

I haven’t researched shock rebuilders yet. Our Parts & Service Directory lists Apple (east coast), Five Points (SoCal) and M&S (OR). About 10 yrs ago I had unsat rebuild on both rear shocks on my 1936 from M&S. They re-did them free, but I had to pay for an extra shipping roundtrip for 40 lbs. I’m inclined to use Five Points due to relative proximity unless someone has had bad experience.

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Syd, you’re most welcome. I need to get into the Delco Lovejoys on my 1934 840A, but was planning to send them out for rebuilding. You can buy shock oil in quarts from Buick reproduction parts specialist Bob’s Automobilia in Atascadero, CA (think his website is http://www.bobsautomobilia.com). I use a small, flexible-nozzle, trigger-operated oil can from the hardware store to fill shocks on the car (dedicate a specific NEW oil can to that purpose, and mark it appropriately).

I hate to admit it, but I’ve bought time on shocks that leaked by adding STP via a small mustard squeeze bottle with a conical tip. It’s really very time-consuming but tides you over.

Houdaille shocks originally used glycerine as fluid but are usually rebuilt with seals that will accept shock fluid/hydraulic oil. If I think the shocks may not have ever been rebuilt, I’ll add glycerine from the drug store as it’s probably more benign to the old seals than petroleum-based shock/hydraulic oil. For colder climates, dilute the glycerine 10% with alcohol, as Pierce-Arrow recommended.

Delco-Lovejoys were manufactured to use petroleum-based shock/hydraulic oil.

George

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Hello, Syd,

My 1930 B has Houdaille shocks (round ‘can’) so I can’t comment on Delco Lovejoys.

Gear oil (I also use these products in my two Series 80s and in my 1922 Paige 4-pass. touring):

For the differential, the most important thing is to use GL-4 (hypoid) oil rather than the more readily available GL-5 (suitable for limited slip) or GL-6 (synthetic), as both GL-5 and GL-6 contain sulfur which will attack bronze components, especially bushings. NAPA stores sell Sta-Lube brand in both GL-4 and GL-5 in quarts and gallons. As to weight, since we’re both in California I recommend SAE 140 if you have not had the diff rebuilt. For climates that drop below freezing more than very occasionally, or if you have fresh gears and bearings and bushings, SAE 90 is probably better.

For the non-synchro transmissions (I have a Clark 4-speed in my 1930), you need to use GL-1 (straight mineral oil) or GL-4, again refraining from use of GL-5 or GL-6. A fairly heavy-weight oil will slow down the gears during shifting to minimize clashing. There are two options:

(1) the old 600-W steam cylinder oil (essentially Pierce-Arrow’s "Special Compound") that you can get from Model A / Model T Ford suppliers at swap meets, but be sure you get the dark, smelly, viscous stuff rather than the translucent, less-viscous stuff also sold as 600-W but which I suspect is repackaged SAE 140. The dark, smelly, viscous version is probably equivalent to about SAE 200 in weight. I choose NOT to use this in my diff, but it’s fine in transmissions.

(2) big-rig SAE 250 straight mineral oil such as Texaco Thuban. Downside is that the smallest size available is a 5-gallon pail. You MIGHT be able to take a couple of clean one-gallon containers to a big-rig repair shop and get them to pump you some from a 55-gallon drum. The SAE 250 will be stiff for the first five minutes in winter in coastal Calif.

Perhaps someone from colder areas can add some info on fluids more suitable for their areas, or on semi-annual fluid changes where necessary.

VBR, George

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Greg and Chris,

One caution that has often been offered by Eric Rosenau (our immediate past Chief Judge and who restores Pierces for a living) is to NOT RE-torque a head while the engine is hot.

On my cars, I let the engine cool for 60-90 minutes (but not overnight) before re-torque.

As to pattern, there is no specific pattern recommended other than to start at the center and work your way evenly out to both ends.

To clarify Chris’s information, I make one pass at 35, another at 50, and a 3rd at 65-70, then a final also at 65-70. Don’t be tempted to overtighten!

Greg, this is a very busy time of year for a lot of us. Frankly, when I saw your post, I thought "I really don’t have time to reply right now–if someone else doesn’t respond in a couple of days, I will." Perhaps others have been in the same boat. For everyone with a question like this, may I suggest that if there is no message board response to your tech question in a couple of days, e-mail it to Fay Butler (link to ‘ask Tech Committee’), who — if he’s not comfortable answering it himself — will send it to one of us who has experience with that year and model.

Best wishes to all for a happy holiday season!

George

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As far as I can determine, all Series 80s came from the factory WITHOUT rear bumpers / bumperettes. Any that we find were either dealer-installed or aftermarket accessories. My 1925 sedan has tubular painted bumperettes that are 1-5/8 inch OD and have the letters "U.S." on the nickeled vertical clamps. The sedan is 1924 production and has the 1.5-inch OD FRONT bumper, so the scale of the 1.625 rear bumperettes is very close and looks good. On or about Jan 12, 1925, the company began installing larger 2.00-inch FRONT bumpers, which my 1925-production coupe has.

My 1925 coupe has nickeled double-bar conventional rear bumperettes.

For my money, either style is acceptable for judging, but I much prefer the tubular bumperettes since they echo the front bumper.

If you’re fabricating rear bumperettes, I’d suggest you go with a diameter that is close to the diameter of your FRONT bumper for consistency.

Best regards,

George

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I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade, but do wish to point out that (1) 1934 front fenders are different from 1935, (2) there are many different (by part number) front fenders over those two years and (3) there are multiple different left and right REAR fenders in the 1934-35 Parts catalog. With varying degrees of work, some may be modified to fit a need, but I can’t comment on that.

For anyone interested, I can give the part numbers and the years and body styles to which they apply if you will e-mail me the year, model, and body style you have (too many to list here).

George

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Our member and my good friend of more than 30 years, Jerry Washburn of San Pablo, California, is a retired Master Machinist who specializes in re-engineering pre-war water pumps for better performance. He machines the interior of the pump body to permit the use of modern seals, and he uses sealed bearings instead of bushings. There is no more packing to tighten or replace, and the grease cup is then strictly decorative. You may have seen his ads in Skinned Knuckles.

Jerry has done four Pierce pumps and one Paige pump for me. Three of those were done over ten years ago and have performed beautifully.

His shop number is (510)724-5774 and is good Mon-Thurs 10AM – 3 PM Pacific Time. After hours/weekends, he’s at (510)235-2239. You can leave a message ONLY on the after hours number.

He offers a lifetime guarantee, but cautions that it’s HIS lifetime

George

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