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Thanks to this post it reminded me I needed to get brighter taillight and stop bulbs for my Packard based on comments from others following me. I have ordered some LED bulbs to try that are 600 lumens. According to the source of all wisdom (the internet) candle power (or candelas) can be converted to lumens by multiplying by 12.57. Packard specified a 3 cp tailight bulb which would have only been 38 lumens. I have a stoplight bulb that was rated at 25 watts, and using a table converting incandescent watts to lumens indicates between 11 and 13 lumens/watt, thus my stoplight bulb would be about 275 lumens, so a 600 lumen should be a lot brighter – maybe too bright but the tailights have poor reflectors and are located away from the focus of the reflector.

I was operating 32 then 50 cp headlight bulbs before I switched to the newer halogens, so they would have been 400 and 630 lumens respectively. The newer halogens seemed a bit brighter than the old 50 cp, have the same filament location for the low/high beam focus and the generator can keep up with them (it couldn’t running 2 50 cp bulbs). I will stand pat with the halogen for headlights.

Jim

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Ken, I am hoping others with more experience will post, since at this point I don’t have operational experience. I suspect that once the trapped air leaks out of the top of the lower can and floods the sending unit tube up to the level of gas in the tank that it would likely take a lot of driving before enough air is restored to get it working again, or even not start working even with a lot of driving if the surface tension of the fuel in the sending unit line prevents the air bubbles from rising in the small tube and purging the fuel.

There have been of course lots of PASB articles and posts on this problem through the years.

Like “Chauncey” I have no trophy aspirations for my Pierce, but enjoy the challenge of making stuff work again. We know they must have worked to a reasonably acceptable level when new, and maybe it was simply that they would have been driven regularly, had no varnish or sediments in the tank and had never been disassembled. My idea above of adding valves to the system to provide a means to back flow the fuel out of the sending unit will probably create more problems than it solves unless a dead certain seal in the valves and their connections can be achieved – I will be cogitating on that.

I did an experiment a few years ago trying to determine how fast the K-S fluid would lose its color and if the fluid from different vendors lasted longer. I purchased new K-S fluid samples and put them in glass dropper tubes and set them directly in the Nevada sun for the summer. Some had UV protective glass in front of them. None of them had turned color by the end of the summer, and to date still haven’t turned sitting around in my garage.

Oddly, however, the fluid I had in my gauge for the test of my system shown in the picture above was bright red for test but after a couple of months in the garage without direct sunlight it suddenly turned light amber in the space of a week or two. That fluid was one I had bought over 20 years before and had been kept in its black light blocking packaging the entire time until put in the gauge for the test.

I think it is a combination of age and light, not just the light exposure alone.

Jim

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It occurs to me that perhaps it would be possible to get a KS fuel gauge working again that has stopped because it has lost its air charge from a miniscule leak after sitting for awhile.

Install a stop valve somewhere between the sending unit and the gauge and close it. Install a tee connection to the line between the sending unit and the new stop valve. The line coming from the tee will also need a stop valve. Blow air into the tee to clear the line and sending unit of fuel – might be able to hear it bubbling in the tank when it clears. Close the valve going into the tee while still blowing air into it. Then open the valve going to the gauge.

Of course the valves and their connections introduce a new source of potential leaks and could make the problem more frequent.

Jim

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Bill, the CAD files are on their way.

Peter, mine is the King-Seeley hydrostatic gauge. The previous picture shows the test I did to see if it would work off the car first. The two big problems as you know are getting the connections of the tube between the gauge and the sending unit as perfectly sealed as possible. On my test I immersed the sending unit in a jerry can of fuel and timed how long the column would stay up before leaking down. I got it to where it could last more than a week. I think some have soldered the connections or used sealant when making the connections, I didn’t want to do anything permanent for my test since I had to take it apart again to install on the car.

To keep it working on the car it must be driven periodically to slosh the fuel around. The whole complicated sending unit in the tank relies on the fuel sloshing around to fill the little trays that then drain down with trapped air down the tiny tubes and replenish the air trapped in the top of the can at the bottom of the unit. I don’t think the air gets recharged with a full tank or nearly empty tank so I theorize that 1/4 to 3/4 tank is probably best to keep it working. Of course if the tiny tubes get plugged with junk they won’t work either. This requires either a pristine tank with no sediment or a filter around the sending unit. I built a filter to surround the sending unit but won’t know if the whole mess works until I get the car on the road. I don’t think my filter turned out to be a very good design, it became a real kluge to get it to go down the fuel tank hole. With a couple years to mull it over I am thinking of redoing it. Instead of surrounding the entire sending unit assembly with a brass mesh, I am considering applying a fine mesh to the tops of the little trays themselves and a separate filter for the main fuel pick-up tube. It probably also needs a screen for the bottom of the can since it has a very tiny hole that lets the air bubbles get into the can. Mine was blocked with old gas sludge.

It is with some trepidation that I post the picture of my kluge. In my mind it didn’t start out this crude.

Jim

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This appears to be identical to my ’35 845. I generated a CAD model of the facia markings for restoration if it would be of any help.

Jim

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I have been curious at times about the membership numbers, they sometimes seem to be roughly consistent with the date when joined but some with lower member numbers have later join dates. Not that it is important, sort of like trying to sort out car body, serial and engine numbers and build dates!

Jim

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I believe 33-34? Buick lenses will fit 33-35 Pierce-Arrow if you can find them. When Irv Blonder made replacement lenses many years ago he reproduced the non-handed Buick lenses so one mold could cover all 33-35 and be reasonably affordable. Unfortunately he had run out of them by the time I bought my P-A and needed a LH for my ’35. Reproducing lenses is obviously challenging, and when some insisted that they needed “authentic” acrylic lenses down to part numbers for 33-34, 35, L/R Irv bowed out from making more and Roy Judd took on the task of making 4 separate molds for each. Apparently 33-34 glass lens have been reproduced since then, and I salute whoever went to that very challenging task. I admit to some shock when $700 prices are touted for lenses, but pricing out replacement plastic lens for new cars puts in it perspective.

Its hard to to tell the difference in lens details on a car driving down the road, so if the choice is keeping a car hidden from view because it’s lens’ aren’t “correct” or enjoying the car, I say enjoy the car.

Jim

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Re: powerpoint. Using powerpoint to compactly illustrate technical issues goes beyond just resizing or multiple pictures. If there is serious interest out there for a step by step tutorial on creating an uploadable JPEG image from powerpoint with text and arrows I could create one. Like most software, it is easy to use except the huge numbers of features takes a while to sort out. An example from a previous post is attached.

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I have been quite happy and impressed with the site, it is easy to use and reliable given the volunteer nature of maintaining one. I am one of the people on it pretty much daily.

I think before talking about completely gutting and rebuilding the website based on statistics of use it should be born in mind what percentage of users will use it regardless of how easy or intuitive or “good” it is.

Many – probably most -members are passive and the PAS is not their daily interest. All clubs end up being driven by a relatively small number of individual volunteers with the majority being passive. I doubt a significant website change is going to move that needle dramatically. I am not opposed to improvements, just saying expectations should be realistic. The “curmudgeon” factor must be applied. Many are not good at computers or even interested in using them. For example, there has been an effort to get interest in the PAS Facebook page, but after watching my wife deal with facebook and all its distractions and privacy problems I don’t want to have any Facebook account (she has stopped using Facebook herself). I am a curmudgeon like many and only acquiesced to getting a “smart” phone last year.

I have been a member of PAS for over 30 years, have owned my derelict Pierce for 28 years. I have been a passive member and quietly collected PASB’s, Arrows, and other information until I finally started working on it a few years ago. I have been a member of Packard Automobile Classics for longer, I am much more active in it going on many tours with my Packard, but rarely visit the PAC website. The PAC website is large and impressive, but it simply is not my focus at the moment.

I am spending so much time on the PAS website primarily because it is my current project and at the top of my mind.

Jim

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I would be less concerned about breather filtration, it is primarily there to allow the dirty blowby from the rings to escape the crankcase, so it is generally blowing out not sucking outside air in.I would worry about a filter on the breather plugging up with carbon and sludge. Pierce’s system of dumping the breather blowby gasses between the air filter and carb inlet makes sense. The slight pressure drop of the air filter helps induce the breather flow (which actually shouldn’t need any help) and if for some reason the pressure goes negative it is drawing air through the main air filter.

A PCV system would be nice – it would ventilate the crankcase and reduce the sludge and deposit formation, but would be a non-trivial task to calibrate the flow and adjust the carb mixture to compensate for the ventilation flow bypassing the carb.

As a trivial aside, an engineer in the ’30’s determined that cooling the crankcase atmosphere by positive ventilation with outside air was significantly more effective at reducing con rod bearing temperatures than an oil cooler – most of the rod bearing cooling was via the rod thrashing around in the crankcase. He proposed drawing all of the carb intake air through the crankcase, which was pretty much the appropriate amount of air to cool the crankcase air. The first (unsolved) hurdle was how to separate all the oil flying around from reaching the carburetor and avoid rapid loss of oil – not to mention the smoke screen.

Jim

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This topic was also discussed in a lengthy thread a month or so ago. To add to the discussion, another point about temperature and engine wear. Studies way back showed that coolant temperatures of 160 and below kept the oil thicker and led to more oil getting past the rings and burning, leading to more deposits which increased piston ring, piston ring groove, and cylinder wear. Thick weight oils have the same effect, and of course engines during warmup. Ironically, the trend in piston ring design through the years shows that the problem for most engines is scraping the excess oil down, not too little oil on the cylinder walls. Moot testimony to this is the Packard senior engines. Before 1936 they used 3 compression rings and one cast iron oil ring, same as Pierce. In 1937 they replaced the #3 compression for a second oil scraper ring, so it had two compression and 2 oil rings. Customer complaints of excess oil consumption were to be dealt with by adding springs behind the rings to increase pressure.

Once pressurized cooling systems came into play coolant temps were raised to 180 -195 and above. One study found that wear was minimized with 20 weight oil and coolant temperatures above 180. The rings were less effective at scraping the excess oil down when thicker.

Years ago I had my shutter thermosylphon recharged to have a 180 opening temperature instead of 160 (it was an option on some cars) – which also helped the passenger heater effectiveness.

Compared to the air filtration issue this factor is probably more academic than practical given the really low miles any of them will likely ever see before it becomes illegal to self drive your car without computer. Meanwhile, it underscores the goodness of getting engine temperatures up by driving them (not idling or puttering around at 25 mph) and not using thick oils.

Personally I do not put my cars away for winter, I try to drive them at least once a month to avoid “death by museum” syndrome. Not always possible depending on the weather of course (like this week with a mix of heavy snow and rain). I like to get all the lubricants splashed and worked around a bit to keep the seals from drying out. The tires also develop flat spots from sitting that are annoying at highway speeds, unless you jack the cars up which makes it very inconvenient to drive them somewhat regularly.

Jim

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Thanks for looking! Yes, converting to real units makes it .63″ wide (slightly wider) and .59″ ~9/16 high, so probably the same as the slightly too tall cross-section used on Packard and some Fords.

It looks like my choice will be having the channel stick into the window opening a bit too far or using a black cross-section that will be close to flush.

Jim

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The Tatra’s were designed by Jaray starting in the 1920’s. He was an engineer who did much of the pioneering work on auto streamlining. You can see the elements of Jaray designs before the Silver Arrow. The Silver Arrow took some of the principles of Jaray’s (and others) designs and made them more aesthetically pleasing. Interestingly (to me), he did his pioneering automobile aerodynamic work in the same wind tunnel that the German Zeppelins were studied in.

“Streamlined” cars are usually ugly to our eyes. A truly well streamlined shape requires a long tapered tail to keep the flow from separating off the rear facing surfaces, but the length of that taper is usually quite impractical for a car that must accommodate passengers. As a compromise the back end gets lopped off usually in some unfortunate fairly blunt shape. Famously, Carl Breer’s early work on streamlining at Chrysler learned that the basic late 1920’s shaped cars had less drag going backwards.

A car design that inspired my interest in Classic cars was Virgil Exner’s theoretical 1966 Pierce-Arrow design, I thought it was the best looking fastback design, (I like ’66 Toronados too). However, while just being a basic five passenger car it’s total length would have been a whopping 22 feet.

Jim

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Tom, I have removed and replaced my original spring covers successfully. I pried the folded over sections one by one along the bottom with combinations of a putty knife and a wide blade vise grip. The metal is pretty soft and did not split when unfolded and refolded back.

Originally the springs were greased between all leaves and wrapped in canvas underneath the covers. The issue of greasing boils down to whether there is enough grease left that isn’t just all dried up. You might be able to assess this after removing some segments.

To completely grease I removed the axle u-bolts and the center bolt holding the leaves together and removed and cleaned all the leaves before re-greasing. (actually I removed the springs from the car but that shouldn’t be necessary of the leaves and shackle bearings are in good shape). Removing the leaves may not be necessary if you just slather in the grease at the edges of each leaf as you work the spring up and down with a jack. I replaced the canvas with new before reassembling the metal covers.

There are plastic strips available in lieu of the original grease, this would entail taking the leaves apart.

I will leave the question to others whether anyone has successfully lubed the springs without removing the covers.

When I did this several years ago I could not find new replacements for the metal covers (often referred to as “gators”, I call them crab legs), but I believe a year or so ago the subject came up here and there is somebody reproducing them now.

Good luck!

Jim

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Bob, my ’36 Packard originally had a radio and did (does) have a condenser mounted somewhere around the circuit breaker behind the dash – I imagine it doesn’t function anymore but didn’t know what to replace it with. Since I don’t listen to AM anyway I didn’t spend much time chasing it. It would be worth an experiment to put one across the regulator. I wonder if it would suppress the sparking of the brushes and improve brush life?

Sorry we have gotten a bit off track from the original question. My dome light is in very good condition with essentially no corrosion – except the tiny wire sockets do appear to have some surface corrosion and certainly could be a connection problem that could lead to overheating.

Bill, you will appreciate my problems with my Jaguar electrical a few years back. Despite the Lucas “Prince of Darkness” reputation, they all seemed to stem from slight corrosion on the fuse and connector surfaces.

Thanks for the help!

Jim

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I will add a ground wire. Certainly scary to think of the connection smoldering to the point of causing the bows to turn to charcoal!

I have debated about using the chicken wire for the antenna. I did that on my ’36 Packard – keeping it isolated from the metal body and coax to the radio. I am not sure if it was too good or simply bad, the end result was that AM reception is completely trashed by the engine, even when switching to resistor spark plug wire. It doesn’t really matter since there is nothing “authentic” to listen to on AM anyway. To listen to authentic music I have a AM/FM/USB hidden in the driver side glovebox so that I can play authentic music – queue Tommy Dorsey.

The negative ground stereo is isolated from the positive ground car and powered with a 6/12 upconverter. FM reception is okay but pretty marginal -it will pick up engine sparking unless the FM signal is strong. I suspect the chicken wire was convenient but probably not really a very good antenna, and while fussing over how to do the top I am thinking of putting a dipole wire antenna between the batting and top above the chicken wire. I don’t know if the proximity of the conductive chicken wire to the dipole would defeat the system.

Radio and electromagnetism is black art to me, anyone have better ideas?

Jim

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That answers the questions, thanks for the responses! “Opera”” lights seems fitting given their design.

Jim”

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My ’35 Pierce has a gasoline fired Southwind heater. It was in Wisconsin until I bought it. It was dealer installed and was a bit of a crude butcher job cutting a rectangular piece through the firewall for the gas, exhaust and electrical. The Southwind is in poor condition, but doesn’t really matter since it is too scary to think about installing a gasoline fired heater inside the car!

Not as crude as my ’36 Packard, which had a dealer installed hot water heater. The holes they cut in the firewall took out a corner of the serial plate. That heater was a generic without any brand. I later found a dealer unit with a Packard label on it.

Packard had provisions for plumbing a hot water heater coming out the top of the cylinder head and back to the temp regulator. Pierce did not. In anticipation of installing a hot water heater in my P-A, I cut down a brass pipe fitting that replaces some of the radiator upper hose, and soldered a smaller tube into it for a hot water takeoff. I also soldered a return tube into the large brass lower fitting between the radiator and water pump.

For years I ran the Packard hot water knee scorcher, it was very effective and with the thermosylphon shutter system it would warm up the car faster than any of my later cars. Then I added an under dash evaporative “swamp” cooler and was cooking my dear wife on hot days. The reason was I hadn’t installed insulation between the dash board and firewall, the pockets in the sides of the footwells, or most importantly, the floors above the exhaust pipe and mufflers.

After rectifying that and getting it much better insulated, it no longer was as comfy warm on cold days, but we don’t cook in the summer.

Jim

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Thanks for the responses. 12-15 is more in line with what I have been anticipating for a good quality local shop (we just closed a local business and very much in tune with giving local business first shot. It is still a few multiples more than I paid to have my Packard done in 1986 (multiples above basic inflation). It was done from pictures – I had nothing left except the rear seat squab.I am surprised that a sedan would be significantly less than an open car – seems like there is more detail and as much total yardage involved.

I already have the woodgrain done, I won’t send the last bits of door hardware chrome out for replate until I have finished repairing and refitting the doors.

Paul, thanks for your response on the striped pattern. I was going to ask for pictures but remembered your car was featured in an Arrow. I am looking at it now – Series 11 Model 2. That subtle stripe pattern is clearly what my car had, I think it is more subtle than the Packard striped but will start getting samples from where I can.

Jim

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The upholsterer I have used in the past has me provide the material. The discussion below about 50-75k for an upholstery job has me looking at what options I have for cost as I am not going to spend more on just the upholstery than the car will be worth. It may show up for sale for parts if that is the case, although it has always been just good enough that it shouldn’t be parted out provided someone like me is willing to put in the sweat equity at zero dollars/hour in lieu of sitting on the couch watching football.

I am jumping the gun a bit here as I am a long ways from the upholstery shop, but if the material isn’t always available I may need to buy it well in advance of needing it – like so many other parts.

Jeff Hirsch got back to me immediately and is asking if I might be referring to Packard striped material. What I have in mind I have seen on several Packards. The sad remains of my Pierce-Arrow fabric appears to have been very similar with a visible vertical striping pattern. Attached is a picture of a friends beautiful ’37 Packard with what I have in mind.

I am extremely picky about colors – I have mixed at least 25 paint samples for the exterior and still haven’t settled on the final combination but they will be blues with a gray or blue-gray upholstery fabric being appropriate.

Jim

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