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Ed, John Cislak obviously made a significant investment in reproducing mufflers years ago, but if he doesn’t intend to produce them again do you think he might consider publishing the specs from the originals?

Jim

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The mufflers on my 845 when I purchased it had obviously been replaced, necking down to a 2″ pipe replacing the #1 muffler and then using a 1 3/4

tailpipe instead of a 2″. My replacements are all 2 1/4″ diameter inlet/outlet and a 2″ dia tailpipe per the Pierce spec. Trying to snake that 2″ through the obstructions was a big challenge and I can see why the long forgotten muffler shop made life easier on themselves and used a smaller diameter.

I am in the process of reviewing old SAE engineering reports on vapor lock and in particular the effect of modern fuel properties including ethanol. Randy you are of course absolutely right, the last thing you want to do is insulate the outside of the fuel pump, it would make vapor lock worse by restricting air circulation. The thick insulating gasket is critical to reduce heat coming from the block. I think improving ambient air circulation around the pump and carb is the right direction.

My #2 is a heavy duty truck muffler much thicker than typical. If my ’35 survives initial start and driving the bare body/chassis around without a problem I will wrap them in muffler insulation for the next phase.

I would like to hear a Pierce with the original muffler design – I have been curious for 20+ years.

If I were as talented and dedicated as Jim Livings – who makes his own mufflers – I would replicate then myself, but too many skills to learn for a single car project!

Jim

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Bill, yes I think just a simple hex bead bolt (5/16 UNC if I remember right) locks the plate in place when not open.

I am hoping someone can confirm or deny that the pin is original equipment or if there was something better.

Jim

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Bill here is a shot of the timing cover and the pointed screw that goes through the back hole to attach. The pointer ends up a ways away from the timing mark on the flywheel but can be seen at the angle when looking back from the engine compartment. I assume it is original equipment and I guess close enough.

Not as easy as marks on the front damper but a lot easier than the E-type Jag where the pointer is on the bottom and I have to raise it on the lift running to adjust timing (is that really correct?)!

The timing cover plate is .093 thick steel.

I am struggling with mufflers and tailpipes on my ’35 today, hope to finally do the first start next weekend.

Jim

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Back in the ’60’s station wagons were adaptions of sedans that could haul lots of kid’s, Classic Car parts or lumber in air conditioned comfort long distances with a quiet, comfortable ride. In the ’70’s, station wagons were too practical to be cool so they were abandoned in favor of minivans that were also too practical to be cool. In the 80’s a comfortable ride was too gauche and the Eurotrendoids adopted small cars with stiff suspensions, great cornering capability that is never used, and road “feel”(i.e. road shock) apparently so the driver doesn’t need to look at the road. To replace the practicality of the station wagon, large trucks with stiff suspensions were fitted with passenger compartments that provide the bronco-bust’n ride now considered “correct”. The station wagon derided as an oversized “barge” is now dwarfed by these massive passenger trucks. Thank goodness Packard and Pierce-Arrow did not survive only to have their dignity sullied by the need to survive building passenger lorries.

My ’66 Chrysler station wagon has served me reliably for 34 years and hauled lots of lumber and car parts. It has no faux wood and gets 15 mpg highway. Unlike a Suburban I can go to Home Depot and close the tailgate on a 4’x8′ plywood when needed.

Jim

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Bill, mine is pretty handy at the moment, I can remove it and take some pictures and dimensions this weekend.

I assume the pointer built into the attach screw is correct on mine, but it is quite a ways away from the flywheel timing marks – a lot of parallax to interpret the timing. I may post a picture for comment this weekend.

Jim

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Okay, I was going to sit this one out, but I can’t help myself! Here is my part of the show.

I am unfamiliar with “DENSO” but the idea of greasing and wrapping with something perhaps better than canvas as described seems basically sound from a practical standpoint – if it is as tough as canvas when being flexed by the spring. Does the Denso have a fabric reinforcement? I would wonder about the resistance to not tear up as the springs flex, but probably not hard to replace if they don’t stand up. The canvas itself is easy enough to deal with but might rot in the next 50 years if the car is driven in the rain.

I don’t doubt that in ’35 Pierce springs had a canvas wrap below the metal gaiters – so did senior Packards. I know because I had to clean the dried up remains – what a mess! I reused the original gaiters – including the screwdriver holes probably poked in by someone trying to grease without taking the springs apart- new canvas and new grease.

An old 1944 SAE report on keeping overloaded springs alive during WWII stated that leaf springs do not perform a significant damping function. Basically if your shocks are not working and your springs have enough friction to damp it means your springs are squeaking and wearing quickly.

I have no experience with plastic interleaf sliders but the description of “tape” worries me that it won’t be thick enough to last very long. There is a significant force on the leaves as they slide. Restoration Supply has interleaf sliders that I believe are Teflon. UHMW might work well at lower cost – it is not as strong as Teflon but has comparable wear resistance and friction depending on extra lubricants and additives infused in the plastic. Both are available from McMaster-Carr. The plastic should have a long term advantage in not trapping moisture like the canvas and grease combination. The extra thickness will throw off the ride height for an overslung spring. The friction coefficient of plastics will be higher than grease – until the grease eventually dries up, likely not in our lifetimes.

Jim

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Definitely does look like a “Straight-Thru-Tuned”” without any flow turning baffles for minimal pressure loss as claimed in the 1934 spec.

Thanks for digging these out!

Jim”

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Paul, thanks. Here is what Waldron’s records showed for the specs:

“2 resonators that are round with a 6” body diameter, 18” body length with an over-all length of 24”, 2¼” ID on both the inlet and the outlet, center inlet/center outlet. 1 muffler that is round with a 6” body diameter, 36” body length with an over-all of 42”, 2¼’ ID on both the inlet and outlet, center inlet/center outlet.”

Clearly the 2 18″ length for #1 and #2 are wrong, Greg Long’s picture of an original resonator scaled out at 12-13″, so the 14″ in the 1970 PASB makes sense. Their 36″ length for #3 did seem to agree with my measurement of ~36-37″.

Meanwhile the ’34 840 service data says the total length of the three is 73″ without specifying the individual lengths of each one. Assuming they are talking about case length and not overall to the pipe ends, means a 14″ + 22″ would need a 37″ for #3, that agrees more or less with my scaling of the chassis picture.

All very confusing, in the end you “pays your money and takes your choice”!

Thanks! Jim

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Actually I had already made one and it slipped off the bolt yesterday when I thought I was installing for the final time. The interference made me wonder whether it actually had one originally.

Thanks! Jim

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Bill, I thought I recollected you had posted some pictures of a dissected muffler but didn’t find them.

I don’t have any originals to dissect.

After Greg Long’s discussion a few months ago I was tempted to try glass packs on all 3. They are actually pretty inexpensive so maybe down the road I will do it as a science experiment.

For anyone handling or dissecting original Pierce mufflers remember that the Pierce spec indicates asbestos lagged, so any white/gray stuff should be handled with respect. The insulation under the floor boards is also probably asbestos.

I will be using non-authentic modern muffler wrap to insulate instead.

Jim

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I am just having Waldron’s build the second and third mufflers. They were the only source I could find that could supply something besides a glass pack over 30″ for the last muffler now that Kepich is gone. The front “synchronizer” (resonator) that Greg Long helped me with I plan to use a round straight-through stainless mesh I can buy locally. The stainless mesh is similar to a glass pack as I understand it with minimal flow restrictions but a little more effective at damping the pulses. I will have the pipes done locally by a shop that did Harrah’s cars years ago.

I estimated the length of the #2 and #3 mufflers by scaling a picture of the bare chassis in the sales literature. Waldron’s had specs for a ’35 that didn’t seem to square with my measurements. I specified the dimensions to Waldrons.

I debated about using a straight-through for #2 as well, since I think the point of the 3 mufflers was to have different lengths tuned to different frequencies that allowed less restriction overall.

It would be interesting to see what the insides of the originals looked like.

Jim

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Several months ago when I was trying to find out how the the remote hydrostatic liquid temp gauge for the ’35 worked and found several articles on the radiator top mount Boyce motometer and learned it is not truly a temperature gauge but relies on being in the steam vapor /air mix at the top of the radiator without being immersed in the liquid water. The idea was that since liquid water reaches a fixed temperature while it boils off (for a given atmospheric pressure in an unpressurized system), a bulb in liquid teels teh liquid temperature but doesn’t really tell you anything about how fast the water is boiling out and whether the engine is actually overheating. The motometer was designed to show the rate of boiling I believe, and some water was expected to evaporate in an open unpressurized system. Bottom line, don’t expect the two to agree with each other, and it is possible the motometer is a better indicator of overheating if not actual temperature. I just stated 200% of what I know – its been a few months.

I imagine some of others familiar with the teens and twenties cars can elaborate/correct me on this.

Jim

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I did find an NOS R-1 from an ebay vendor – isn’t “like new” but it should work. A description of the R-2 on ebay indicates it has a 1 5/8 diameter instead of 1 1/2 and I don’t think it will fit – too bad as there are more of them on ebay in better condition for less money.

The single handle cap Paul mentions is intriguing I haven’t seen one but will keep an eye out – it is perhaps needs a different keyword to show up on ebay?

Thanks, Jim

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Bill, did you mean a 3 1/2″ piston with 5″” stroke a la 385? Several years ago the Arrow I think published a very poor reproduction of a torque and hp vs rpm curve for a Pierce 8 but I haven’t seen it in a long time. The torque at maximum power can be calculated by the formula torque (in ft-lbs) = HP x 33000 / (RPM x 2 x 3.1416).

The 34/35 Pierce was rated at 140 hp at 3400 rpm which results in 216 ft lbs. Maximum torque occurs below maximum power. Without the benefit of specific dynamometer data I estimate the 385 at 5.5 CR would have peaked out somewhere around 265 ft-lbs of torque in the vicinity of 1600 rpm. I estimate increasing CR 1 point to 6.5 from 5.5 would add about 6% more torque.

Jim

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Thanks for the leads I will check them out!

Jim

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This car looks like the one that was featured in a Car Classics article ca 1968. The 836 is a very beautiful design and it added fuel to my love of Classics with a capital C. I think I still have the article stashed somewhere.

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Bill, probably moot by now, but here is a picture of my fwd firewall from last year as well as some info on a fiberglass batt from McMaster-Carr I used to replace the Kapok in between the two firewalls. The Kapok wasn’t completely torn apart when I removed it and could have been pieced back together, but asked myself why? The original kapok may have been treated to make it fire resistant but pretty sure the fiberglass is probably better in that regard. This fiberglass is higher density than typical fiberglass insulation and seemed like a decent substitute. I also used it to form the thick batt that is squeezed into the pocket between the inside dash/firewall and the inside of the cowl.

Also helpful hint learned the hard way. Assemble the throttle cross shaft linkage back onto the front firewall before dropping the engine back in.

Jim

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The 662R distributor cam does interchange. I think the odds are pretty good that other 662’s (there are a lot of them) also interchange.

662R is set up with 2 stage advance springs (one heavy and one light) instead of the matched springs on my 662J. I need to check more carefully but it looks like it might be set up to allow a bit more centrifugal advance, which could be a good thing since some additional advance should be feasible with the higher octane of current fuel compared to the 1930’s.

Jim

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Greg, actually it gets pretty cold around here even in spring and fall when the sun goes down. My Packard has a heater and it gets used. It also has a custom evaporative cooler where the radio would have been and a 5 gallon water tank in the trunk for hot weather. I like to stay comfortable, but more importantly, I try to keep my wife comfortable, often unsuccessfully. I am cogitating on a significantly improved cooler for the Pierce.

I will probably put a heater return fitting in the pump inlet pipe. I will have a TEFBA filter in the top hose for initial start and check drives, but will fashion a bigger better filter along the lines of Jack Guyomar’s super Tefba style filter and put the goes-to heater fitting in that.

I would be reticent to put the heater fitting as part of a tee with the temp gauge bulb. Years ago I had a bad experience ferrying a friends recently purchased Packard. It had a new radiator core but for unknown reasons a pipe nipple was screwed in between the temp bulb and the head, leaving much of the bulb isolated from the head. It was reading nice and cool all the way as the radiator plugged with junk and it overheated to the point of severe knock. It is why I am big on radiator filters!

Thanks, Jim

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