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I am just having Waldron’s build the second and third mufflers. They were the only source I could find that could supply something besides a glass pack over 30″ for the last muffler now that Kepich is gone. The front “synchronizer” (resonator) that Greg Long helped me with I plan to use a round straight-through stainless mesh I can buy locally. The stainless mesh is similar to a glass pack as I understand it with minimal flow restrictions but a little more effective at damping the pulses. I will have the pipes done locally by a shop that did Harrah’s cars years ago.
I estimated the length of the #2 and #3 mufflers by scaling a picture of the bare chassis in the sales literature. Waldron’s had specs for a ’35 that didn’t seem to square with my measurements. I specified the dimensions to Waldrons.
I debated about using a straight-through for #2 as well, since I think the point of the 3 mufflers was to have different lengths tuned to different frequencies that allowed less restriction overall.
It would be interesting to see what the insides of the originals looked like.
Jim
Several months ago when I was trying to find out how the the remote hydrostatic liquid temp gauge for the ’35 worked and found several articles on the radiator top mount Boyce motometer and learned it is not truly a temperature gauge but relies on being in the steam vapor /air mix at the top of the radiator without being immersed in the liquid water. The idea was that since liquid water reaches a fixed temperature while it boils off (for a given atmospheric pressure in an unpressurized system), a bulb in liquid teels teh liquid temperature but doesn’t really tell you anything about how fast the water is boiling out and whether the engine is actually overheating. The motometer was designed to show the rate of boiling I believe, and some water was expected to evaporate in an open unpressurized system. Bottom line, don’t expect the two to agree with each other, and it is possible the motometer is a better indicator of overheating if not actual temperature. I just stated 200% of what I know – its been a few months.
I imagine some of others familiar with the teens and twenties cars can elaborate/correct me on this.
Jim
I did find an NOS R-1 from an ebay vendor – isn’t “like new” but it should work. A description of the R-2 on ebay indicates it has a 1 5/8 diameter instead of 1 1/2 and I don’t think it will fit – too bad as there are more of them on ebay in better condition for less money.
The single handle cap Paul mentions is intriguing I haven’t seen one but will keep an eye out – it is perhaps needs a different keyword to show up on ebay?
Thanks, Jim
Bill, did you mean a 3 1/2″ piston with 5″” stroke a la 385? Several years ago the Arrow I think published a very poor reproduction of a torque and hp vs rpm curve for a Pierce 8 but I haven’t seen it in a long time. The torque at maximum power can be calculated by the formula torque (in ft-lbs) = HP x 33000 / (RPM x 2 x 3.1416).
The 34/35 Pierce was rated at 140 hp at 3400 rpm which results in 216 ft lbs. Maximum torque occurs below maximum power. Without the benefit of specific dynamometer data I estimate the 385 at 5.5 CR would have peaked out somewhere around 265 ft-lbs of torque in the vicinity of 1600 rpm. I estimate increasing CR 1 point to 6.5 from 5.5 would add about 6% more torque.
Jim
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Thanks for the leads I will check them out!
Jim
This car looks like the one that was featured in a Car Classics article ca 1968. The 836 is a very beautiful design and it added fuel to my love of Classics with a capital C. I think I still have the article stashed somewhere.
Bill, probably moot by now, but here is a picture of my fwd firewall from last year as well as some info on a fiberglass batt from McMaster-Carr I used to replace the Kapok in between the two firewalls. The Kapok wasn’t completely torn apart when I removed it and could have been pieced back together, but asked myself why? The original kapok may have been treated to make it fire resistant but pretty sure the fiberglass is probably better in that regard. This fiberglass is higher density than typical fiberglass insulation and seemed like a decent substitute. I also used it to form the thick batt that is squeezed into the pocket between the inside dash/firewall and the inside of the cowl.
Also helpful hint learned the hard way. Assemble the throttle cross shaft linkage back onto the front firewall before dropping the engine back in.
Jim
The 662R distributor cam does interchange. I think the odds are pretty good that other 662’s (there are a lot of them) also interchange.
662R is set up with 2 stage advance springs (one heavy and one light) instead of the matched springs on my 662J. I need to check more carefully but it looks like it might be set up to allow a bit more centrifugal advance, which could be a good thing since some additional advance should be feasible with the higher octane of current fuel compared to the 1930’s.
Jim
Greg, actually it gets pretty cold around here even in spring and fall when the sun goes down. My Packard has a heater and it gets used. It also has a custom evaporative cooler where the radio would have been and a 5 gallon water tank in the trunk for hot weather. I like to stay comfortable, but more importantly, I try to keep my wife comfortable, often unsuccessfully. I am cogitating on a significantly improved cooler for the Pierce.
I will probably put a heater return fitting in the pump inlet pipe. I will have a TEFBA filter in the top hose for initial start and check drives, but will fashion a bigger better filter along the lines of Jack Guyomar’s super Tefba style filter and put the goes-to heater fitting in that.
I would be reticent to put the heater fitting as part of a tee with the temp gauge bulb. Years ago I had a bad experience ferrying a friends recently purchased Packard. It had a new radiator core but for unknown reasons a pipe nipple was screwed in between the temp bulb and the head, leaving much of the bulb isolated from the head. It was reading nice and cool all the way as the radiator plugged with junk and it overheated to the point of severe knock. It is why I am big on radiator filters!
Thanks, Jim
I have found a 662R distributor that fits LaSalle with a cam in better shape, the it looks the same as 662J but not certain at this point until I can pull it apart. A bit of a gamble but the price was right. It took some doing to find the Pertronix that fits, but finally located a source for that if I go that direction. I will see what the LaSalle cam looks like or if I get any other responses this week to decide. The rest of the distributor is ready to go and one way or another it is going on this weekend.
Coincidentilly my Packard distributor cam would probably interchange if it had the correct distributor, but it has a Northeast for a 1934 instead of a 662T.
Thanks, Jim
Thanks Ed, I have sent a message to John. Jim
Apropos to the rear slinger seal discussion, the later hub has no seal but simply relies on the fill level to stay just below the shaft when stopped and centrifugal force keeps it away from the shaft when turning. No seal to wear out. I was lucky in that my bearings were in such good shape that without the drag of a positive seal I could determine a significant out of balance on the fan blades and counterweight it to adjust.
Jim
Is the ’27 fan hub the same design as my later ’35 845? I ask because I just went through mine and the owners manual says it should be filled with 30 weight oil. I was amazed at the elegant (actually gilding the lily elegant) design of this thing which amounts to a centrifugal pump where the oil is forced out to the wall of the hub and then gets interrupted by a single paddle as it flows to the front to force a little bit of oil to flow into the inside diameter tube with the bearings. Ball bearings generally only need minimal lubrication usually of light oil and I think P-A jumped through hoops with this design to try and give the ball bearings the right level of oil. If the ’27 is the same system 600W oil seems a lot thicker than necessary and I don’t see a benefit.
Jim
Joe, yes loose clearances an/or the drain partially plugged with gunk could cause excessive leakage from the main. I guess it is mainly a question of how bad the leak is and is it worth chasing.
In terms of “marking territory”, my Packard has a Bijur system that lubricates the spring shackles and intentionally drips at every shackle. Years ago a friend with a restoration shop was sued by a finicky owner who claimed negligence because his early ’30’s Packard leaked on his pristine garage floor. Despite calling an expert who went through the whole system to the judge to explain they were supposed to drip by design he lost the case. A comment on the intelligence of our judiciary.
Jim
Joe, I imagine the guys with more knowledge are recovering from the PAS meet, so until then here is a picture of my ’35 845 rear main when checking clearance and with the main bearing cap installed. The rear seal is simply a “slinger” without a mechanical seal or packing. It relies on centrifugal force to keep the oil from coming out. If put on a steep enough incline with the engine stopped it will leak out the back. There is nothing to wear out or repack or tighten.
Some drips are to be expected, but if it is more than that I would suspect the rear cap side seals. You will note mine are very small rectangular slots. The guys at NAPA found a Ford side seal that fits this. The gasket rebuild kit I got from Olsen had .458′ x .440″ rectangular wood sticks that are much bigger than the slots on my ’35. The kit is for ’29-38 Pierce 8’s, so I am guessing earlier 8’s had larger side seals on the rear main made of wood.
Another possibility wcould be the threaded plug that plugs the back of the oil gallery adjacent to the starter.
Good luck, Jim
Yup, feel pretty stupid. I was staring at the back of the backing gland bushing the whole time thinking it was a flange end to the sleeve bearing. It was stuck tight but after coaxing it out with a hammer and punch all was revealed and it looks like a proper packing gland complete with two conical packing washers instead of rope.
You guys were probably wondering what I was going on about! Problem solved and I can get this thing cleaned out and remounted this weekend without “improving”” it.
Jim”
Immediately after posting the response above, it occurred to me that I may be an idiot. It finally dawned that am probably looking at the end of the intermediate conical bushing sticking out the end of the housing, and since it didn’t budge when I was checking it out I just assumed it was part of the bearing sleeve. Will check out when I get home.
Duh! Jim
Bill. All I have is the flat surface end of the bronze sleeve bearing sticking out of the housing and the threaded packing cup to use for packing. The inside of the packing cup is flat. I don’t have the intermediate conical seat part shown in Bill Lyons’ picture.
My sleeve bearing is sticking out so far from the housing that all I can accommodate is single strands of packing to be able to engage the first threads of the cup, so even if I had the intermediate conical seat bushing I wouldn’t be able to use it unless I can push the sleeve bearing further into the housing.
Does your pump have that intermediate conical seat bushing?
My pump may have been rebuilt in the ’60’s and perhaps they had the same problem and whomever just tossed the intermediate piece because it wouldn’t fit. The car was only driven about 50 miles in the ’60’s after it’s rebuild then. The sleeve bearing is in very good shape so I don’t want to mess with it if I don’t have to, as I will likely cause more harm than good.
I am considering cutting a taper in the threaded cup that would allow a bit more packing and the inward force to seal against the shaft. I haven’t figured out why Pierce would have had the intermediate piece instead of simply cutting the threaded cup and the end of the sleeve conical a la Packard.
Thanks for the your responses!
Jim
Bill, thanks for posting. It is clear form your first picture that I am missing the conical packing seat bushing, and that for whatever reason my water pump outer sleeve bearing is not far enough in the housing. Looks like the next question will be whether It can be pressed in further and fabricate or modify to get a conical packing gland. The sleeve bearing is basically in very good shape internally.
Ed, my ’36 Packard uses the original packing gland system with graphite impregnated rope packing, the original steel shaft, 50/50 water/glycol and no extra corrosion inhibitors, or “wetting” agents. I did replace the non-seal ball bearings with sealed but they are on the other side of the packing gland away from the water on a Packard. It has been going for 30 years now with very little weeping and one change of packing material. Presumably the original Pierce system is not inferior to Packard?
Apologies, couldn’t hep mysef!
I have lots of interesting issues with this engine I won’t admit to on the forum, so getting this thing going ASAP to see if everything works is the priority. I am not rebuilding it presuming it will ever see 10,000 miles before the end of time.
Today I had the fantastic experience of riding in the Collings Foundation B-24 Liberator. Pretty much just sons and nephews of WWII vets – no youngsters. My Pierce is 9 years older than the Lib!
Thanks for the help! Jim
Yes, but is mine right? I have managed to wrap individual strands of water pump packing rope around the shaft and into the tiny gap but it doesn’t seem likely to be right.
Is it possible this didn’t use any packing at all but relied only on the grease to seal the shaft? The owners manual talks about refilling the grease cup and turning down every 1000 miles, and tighten the packing gland nut if a leak develops and refill and turn down the grease cup. There is no mention of pump packing per se.
Jim
