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Clearly a Series 4! I can make out the smooth outer edge of the radiator.
Hi Philomena,
Beautiful photo! This discussion on 1929 Pierce Arrow manifolds has been highly interesting.I own a 1929 Sport Roadster that has only 24000 miles from new and the engine number is A-7559 and my car’s serial number is 2005776.The manifold on my car is the true 1929 style and fortunately it is still like new but I worry about all these cracking manifolds out there.How many miles does your car have on it? I am wondering if the 1930 style has more of a tendency to crack.I would be interested to know how well the Stone manifold attaches to the original part with the machining and how it looks.
Bill
The body style appears to be a Brougham and why I believe it to be no later than a Series 4 as by April of 1917,the US was involved in the war and transatlantic shipping would be very risky for any sort of commerce.I wonder if the car exists today.
Oivind,
I believe this car is a Series 4 as in studying the radiator,it appears to have a smooth outer edge on the radiator whereas the Series 3’s and earlier cars have a sharp crimped soldered outer edge on their radiators.I believe the car in the photo is a 1916-1917 model C-4 judging from the proportions.A look at the front wheels would be conclusive.
Bill
In looking at the video,several of the cars looked familiar having seen them in photos in recent publications.In 1957,these classics were already getting pricey especially open cars.The prices may seem cheap today but then they were high in many cases.I have Horseless Carriage Club of America “Gazettes”” from 1957 and one could have bought a new car for many prices quoted.”
The 1931 and 1932 Pierce Arrows use a Guide “Tiltray” lens that is slightly convex in shape.The CM Hall “Depress Beam” lens was not used on any Pierce Arrow of which I am aware.Some years back,there was a PAS service bulletin which described the correct lenses for Pierce Arrow automobiles.
Darryl,
I own a very low mileage 1929 Pierce Arrow Roadster and the block in my car is a sort of grayish-olive color with the head being black.The engine accessories are all plated.
Bill
Does your car have the fender headlamps or bracket lamps? Many of the Pierce Arrows that were exported used bracket mounted headlamps due to local regulations.I have seen photos of circa 1933-1934 Pierce Arrows fitted with French Marchal headlamps on brackets.Other European lamps of the period were Bosch,Grebel,Zeiss and Scintilla.If you have bracket lamps you have some options.Even with fenderlamp housings,I know Marchal made headlamps of varying diameters in the 1930’s and the right sized pair
could be adapted to fit the Pierce Arrow fender housings.In photos I have seen of these fitted to US cars,the Marchal rims,lenses and reflectors were all mated to the original lamp housing.The situation was reversed but similar many years later when imported cars into the US had to be fitted with SAE sealed beam headlamps which required special rims and hardware.
Roger,
You need the reflectors,bulbs and sockets.The bulbs are the easy part but Pierce Arrow reflectors are not easy to find.However many times on US cars delivered new in Europe,the lamps were fitted with Bosch or Marchal reflectors and lenses so as to have the cars conform to local laws.You might be able to locate a pair in the proper dimensions.Hope this helps.
Bill
Dave,
It is hard to come up with a value on these cars as so few change hands.You want a good car and those are hard to find.One thing to keep in mind on the early dual valve Pierce Arrows is their tendency to get cracked valve seats which was not an issue with the pre-dual valve Pierce Arrows.A huge factor on value on cars in this era is whether they are pre-1916 or not.The cars eligible for the pre-1916 clubs and events tend to go for a premium due to this factor.Probably the best way to come up with a value is to look at past sales.
Headlamp reflectors should be replated in silver as original.Chrome plating and nickel plating do not reflect as well as silver.
I got one of these letters too as well as one earlier this year that was from the CCCA or Packard Club roster.I have also been approached by an auction company via email.I suspect they are seeking people who have to sell due to the economy.
Some small parts I believe may interchange between the Pierce Arrow and Studebaker engines but these would tend to be purchased parts like valves,valve springs etc.There are also some parts that interchange between Pierce Arrow and other makes beyond Studebaker.The engineers at Pierce Arrow in 1928 certainly could have studied all current automotive designs out there in coming up with the new eight cylinder engine.I do know in late 1930 that in order to keep a lid on costs Pierce Arrow shared some small general parts with Studebaker in some instances.Items like valves were purchased outside the organization so by using these same parts in both engines,money could be saved.A very good source for information in this area of interchange is a very early issue of Hollanders.
Bill,
My mistake!Five main bearings compared to nine main bearings is quite a difference.My thoughts are Studebaker borrowed Pierce Arrow designs when they redesigned the President Eight engine.
Bill
There has been quite a bit written about the Studebaker influence on the Pierce Arrow Eight.The eight cylinder Pierce Arrow engine was designed before the Studebaker purchase took place.Obviously the infusion of money helped Pierce Arrow to bring the new car out when they did.Pierce Arrow took advantage of Studebaker’s casting facilities when having castings done to Pierce Arrow standards and yes,some general parts were common to both engines like I believe valves.This would make economic sense.The two engines are quite different and it has been said that the new Pierce Arrow Eight engine of 1929 was the best eight cylinder automobile engine of its day.Pierce Arrow in my opinion needed to have this eight cylinder engine some four or five years earlier in order to stay abreast of trends in the luxury car market but the company did not have the cash to do it.I might also mention that the 1929 Studebaker President had seven main bearings where the Pierce Arrow had nine.I believe it was 1931 that the President got nine main bearings.Certainly engineers from both organizations discussed automotive design which would make good sense.Pierce Arrow block castings were aged way longer than those of Studebaker.
The 1929 Roadster in the auction appears to be the same car that was in the Harrah Collection some 30 plus years ago.There are only about six or seven 133 roadsters known to exist and I own one of them.I have studied the Harrah car and took some photos when I was there before the collection got dispersed.This red and black roadster was in the collection of a PAS member for some years after the car left Harrah’s.
As to value that is a hard question to answer without having the car in front of me but even in this economy there are not that many nice earlier automobiles available.If you have more questions,please get in touch with me.
Joe,
The Pierce Arrow Model 66 you make reference to was purchased by Milo Smith of Wauneta,Nebraska probably in the late 1960’s and the car was again sold in the late 1990’s I believe to a Pierce Arrow collector in the Northeast.I remember at Chickasha visiting with Milo about his Pierce Arrows.He also had a 1917 Model 48 that he restored from a very rough car found in California.Again that car is in a collection I am certain.
Bill
Oivind,
Those could very easily be CAV lamps on the Pierce Arrow.In the enlarged image,one can detect a slight inward flare to the lamp body.The owner would love to find a pair of CAV lamps for the car.
Are the car’s lamps still at that property being used for post lamps?
It was not usual for American cars in Great Britain or Europe to be fitted with British or European lamps in those days and even into more recent times.
The current owner came to the US to purchase the frame from the person in Colorado and we had a lovely visit while they were here getting photos and dimensions from my very original C-3.He is a member of PAS.It is possible the car went from Russia to France then got sold to the person from Norway.The headlamps have me curious as they do not look like the CAV’s one sees on Rolls Royce Silver Ghosts of 1914-1915.I always thought they might be Russian or French.Another possibility is that with a war waging,these cars may not have made it to Russia but were unloaded in France instead.If only these cars could talk but if someone saw this car before 1947,I would love to know more.
I am very close to the story of the Norwegian C-3 and it is a most interesting story.The serial number appears to be of the group that were shipped to Russia.Most automobiles in Russia in 1914-1915 were in the area around St.Petersburg and for many years there was a huge cultural linkage between that community and Paris,France.When the Russian Revolution took place in 1917,many of the wealthy among them no doubt some Pierce Arrow owners made their way to Paris.The Norwegian C-3 is currently being restored and in fact a correct intact frame was located in Colorado a few years ago and at this point I believe is a running chassis.It is believed that this car may be the one owned by Alexander Kerensky,the leader of the White Russians.He drove his Pierce Arrow out of Russia,then I think went to France and ultimately to Columbia University in New York City where he taught until his death about 1970 or so.I have seen a photo of him in his C-3 but it does not show the headlamps.THe Russians may have carried a preference for bracket headlamps due to their being less vulnerable and also so the car would blend in more with other vehicles.Those were interesting times.
