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Castella di Amorosa Winery

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Here’s a couple:

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Robert,

Thanks for the info. This might be suitable oil, but not enough information is provided. Most of the companies that sell a 600w equivalent buy a larger quantity from an oil distributor and then repackage it in a smaller bottle. The problem is, there is no Product Data Sheet available on the website to see what it really is. What kind of oil is it? Is is safe for yellow metals? Maybe, but no way of telling without the data sheet. Perhaps a call to ask them would provide the information.

The web page says it is SAE 140 which is heavy for a modern EP oil, but would be a lighter weight of Compounded gear oil. Many of the rear axles in older cars have felt seals that tend to leak with lighter oils and people like to use the heaviest weight possible in the differential to prevent leaks. Compounded oil also comes in SAE 190 and 250.

Transmissions are a different story. How the transmission shifts is dependent on the viscosity of the oil. I tend to prefer the shifting when I use the SAE 190 gear oil. Others prefer a heavier oil to slow the gears down quicker when shifting. Personal preference.

The Phillips Compounded Gear Oil in ISO 1000 (SAE 250) is what both George and I are looking for. The manufacturer PDS lists it as suitable antique auto gear boxes with yellow metal. I live in a rural area and the only Phillips distributor near me doesn’t want to buy 55 gallons to sell me 5. He has little to no demand for it. Understandable. I am going to contact some distributors in the Bay Area and see if one has or is willing to get some.

Sorry for being so long winded.

Dave

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Stu,

Another of those old car topics that has generated much discussion.

What I have read on the topic is to stay away from the “Extended” or “Long” Life coolants that use Organic Additive Technology (OAT). The older style coolant that uses Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) is what should be used in older cars. There are several brands (Peak, Peak HD Sierra, Zerex Original)that still use the older technology. Don’t depend on color, although generally the older style is green.

Apparently, the OAT type eats up gasket sealer as well as some solders.

I use water with NAPA Corrosion Inhibitor / Water Pump Lube, since freezing is not much of an issue out here.

The link is to an AACA forum that give some more information.

Dave

http://www.ncregionaaca.com/firstcapital/index.php/old-cars-and-antifreeze

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Tony- Worm drives actually are a high pressure application not an extreme pressure application such as a Hypoid rear end. EP Gear oil (GL-4) uses a sulfur/phosphorus compound as an additive. GL-4 is used for Hypoid differentials. The Sulfur additive in an EP oil eventually may corrode yellow metals.

Compounded Gear Oil, also called Cylinder Oil, (GL-2) instead uses tallow as an additive and is safe for yellow metals. It is used in worm drive gear boxes because of the “wiping” action of the gears and the brass bull gear.

Both types of oils usually use a mineral oil base although there are synthetics out there. The additive package is where the problem occurs.

The link below goes to an article that gives a good explanation of the difference.

As far as those that use EP GL-4 in gear boxes that have brass, I don’t argue that it might be OK. Unknowingly, I have used 90w EP oil in the transmission (that has brass synchro rings) of my Jeep for almost 50 years and so far have not had a problem. I do know the oil companies do not recommend EP oil with Sulfur additive in gear boxes with brass parts.

Some sulfur additives are much less harmful to brass than others. The “copper corrosion” test is used to determine how harmful the oil will be to yellow metals. 1A is non corrosive to 4C which is very corrosive. The Phillips Compounded Oil is rated 1A.

Robert – As far as what to use in your car, I do not know which type of differential a 1929 has. I use SAE 90 EP oil in my vehicles with a hypoid differential and ISO 1000 Compounded Gear Oil in the differential on my 1928 Pierce.

GL categories:

API Category GL-1 designates the type of service characteristic of manual transmissions operating under such mild conditions of low unit pressures and minimum sliding velocities, that untreated oil may be used satisfactorily. Oxidation and rust inhibitors, defoamers and pour depressants may be used to improve the characteristics of lubricants intended for this service. Friction modifiers and extreme pressure additives shall not be used.

API Category GL-2 designates the type of service characteristic of automotive type worm-gear axles operating under such conditions of load, temperature and sliding velocities, that lubricants satisfactory for API GL-1 service will not suffice.

API Category GL-3 designates the type of service characteristic of manual transmissions and spiral-bevel axles operating under mild to moderate to severe conditions of speed and load. These service conditions require a lubricant having load-carrying capacities greater than those that will satisfy APL GL-1 service, but below the requirements of lubricants satisfying the API GL-4 service. with wide operation ranges and temperature differences in the vicinity of viscosity.

API Category GL-4 designates the type of service characteristic of spiral-bevel and hypoid gears in automotive axles operated under moderate speeds and loads. These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and transaxle applications.

API Category GL-5 designates the type of service characteristic of gears, particularly hypoids in automotive axles under high-speed and/or low-speed, high-torque conditions.

API Category GL-6 (inactive[3]) designates the type of service characteristic of gears designed with a very high pinion offset. Such designs typically require (gear) score protection in excess of that provided by API GL-5 gear oils. The original API GL-6 test equipment is obsolete.

Dave

http://www.industrialoutpost.com/what-are-compounded-gear-oils/

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The Mobil Equivalent is Mobil Cylinder Oil available in the same viscosities as Phillips. It is available in 5 gallon pails.

Mobil PDS link:

http://www.mobil.com/english-us/industrial/pds/glxxmobil-cylinder-oils

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Since George threw my name out there, I’ll give a summary of what I have found regarding gear oil for gear boxes containing brass. Based on discussions with some of the oil company engineers, Phillips/76/Conoco Compounded Gear Oil is designed for gear boxes containing brass parts. The Product Data Sheet (link below) specifically lists Antique Autos that require a high viscosity gear oil. It comes in ISO 460, 690 and 1000. This is equivalent to SAE 140, 190 and 250. It is a GL-2 equivalent oil. Exxon Mobil reportedly has a similar product. My local Phillips distributor says the smallest quantity available is 55 gallons. Some distributors sell enough that they will buy 55 gal and sell 5 gallon pails, mine won’t because the demand is too low.

Chevron Meropa is sold by some old car suppliers as safe for brass. I bought some and when I opened the bottle immediately smelled the sulfur. I spoke with a Chevron engineer that said it is not designed for this use and will eventually degrade yellow metals. She said that Chevron does not have a gear oil for this use and recommended the Compounded Gear Oil from Phillips.

It is my plan to eventually put a more detailed write up of this in an article in the PASB.

I don’t know that this answers Kevin’s question. I am not that up on the 30’s cars, but if it has a worm drive rear axle you should be using a Compounded Gear Oil. If it has a hypoid rear axle you should be using an Extreme Pressure Gear Oil like a GL-4.

Dave

http://s3.amazonaws.com/phillips66-media/products/product_data_sheets/330efebe-c1f8-4e2c-88bb-bd97ada32aad/original/Compounded_Gear_Oil.pdf?1482419619

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This is a photo of the car missing from the group photo, Paul Murray’s Series 33 Sedan. The reason there were so many 6 cylinder cars was because this was a Nickel Era Tour. The host extends the years to 1932, so a few of those chromed 8 cyl. cars were able to get in.

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We most certainly do…..

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Come on Randy, tell us about your “new”” car. Photos?

Inquiring minds want to know.”

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Another place you might try is Running Board Rubber. He does custom running board rubber and floor mats.

http://www.runningboardrubber.com/

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Ron,

I did a search of the Service Bulletins with no result. Pierce-Arrow Truck info seems to be a challenge to find. As Greg mentioned, post some pictures perhaps someone here might be able to help you.

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The back side.

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Ron,

Here are photos, front and back, of the switches on my 1928 Series 36. It would surprise me if this is what you have. The ign switches are the three on the left. My car has two coils, one distributor with 12 plug wires and a double tipped rotor.

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Ron,

Are we still talking about the P-A truck? It would probably help if you were specific about what the vehicle is. I can send you photos of the switches in my Series 36 Dual ign 6, but I doubt they are the same. It is a weird three pull switches (L, R, Both) mounted on a single brass strip.

Dave

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Ron,

I think I have a secondary wiring diagram off of a 6 cyl. Continental that has the same type of distributor, made by Delco. It is a dual ignition. One end of the rotor is offset by one contact in the dist. cap. The coils are different than yours. It is on a fire truck, although not a Seagrave. I am out of the country for another week. I’ll look for it when I get home. Dave

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Ron As I recall this is a Hercules, or something similar in a 30s Pierce-Arrow truck and not a Pierce 6?

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Aw shucks George. OK, I can’t help myself, I have to jump in. I don’t have a real computer and all of the information I have located on the subject of gear oils, so the details and links will have to wait until I get back to the U.S. The bottom line according to a couple of the big oil companies (I talked to some of their engineers) is that what we should use in our old gear boxes is “Compounded Gear Oil”. It specifically designed for worm drives and gear units that have brass or bronze parts. It is available in up to ISO 1500 weight (really thick, I have been using ISO 1000 for my differential and 680 for my transmission). At least Mobil and Phillips carry it. The downside is that it is only available in 5gal. or sometimes only 55 gallon drums.

There are a number of gear oil rating systems (at least four that I have come across) for gear oils. The most common are SAE and ISO. They are NOT the same. A modern 140(SAE) weight hypoid gear oil is approximately the same viscosity as a 600 weight compounded gear oil. Lastly, gear oils that are “EP” oils usually have additives that are corrosive to yellow metals (sulfer compounds). That’s what gives modern EP gear oils the strong smell.

What stared this for me was that I bought some Meropa 1500 for the differential on my Series 36. It is advertised by some old car vendors as safe for yellow metals. When I opened the bottle I immediately noticed the sulfer smell. I contacted Chevron, who makes Meropa, and was told by two different engineers that it was not safe with yellow metals and not appropriate for our needs. So, I am still hunting for more information on the subject, but at this point Compounded Gear Oil has been recommmended by the oil companies for our needs. Do a web search for compounded gear oil and you can get the product data sheet.

George if you have the link to the corrosion test info, perhaps you could post it, and if you have the viscosity comparison chart, that also. If not I will post it when I get home along with more detailed information. -Dave

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Good news Bill. Are you going to move cars from the storage units and the warehouse when the new buildings are up? That will be a nice setup by the pond.

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Bill,

We had a great time looking at your collections. Many thanks.

Dave and Donna

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