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Bill,

Here is the backlash photo (0.010 to 0.018″)

Bob”

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Hi Bill,

Glad to see you’re getting the parts together. I checked my Timken drawings and found the specs for backlash, and a picture of the contact pattern “when tested on power stand test”. Contact pattern in this post, backlash in next.

Bob

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Photo around the 1935 1245 convertible, no less!

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Hi Craig,

I agree with all of Ed’s points – do it the right way if you can if you want a correct car rather than just an exercise.

Bob

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Hi Craig,

You indeed have a dilemma. It is whether to have a correct YEAR engine, or to have a correct DESIGN engine for your 1930 “B” roadster. The number will be wrong in any case.

The 1930 “A” engine is a 3.5 x5″ 385 cu. in. engine (132 HP), #300/301xxx,

the 1930 “B” engine is a 3.5 x4.75″ 366 cu.in. engine (125 HP), #200/201/202xxx, and

the 1930 “C” engine is a 3.375 x4.75″ 340 cu.in. engine (115 HP), #100/101/102xxx.

Your 1932 Model 54 engine is a 3.5×4.75″ 366 cu.in. 125 HP engine, #230/231xxx, and is basically the same block design as the 1930 “B” engine (and will look authentic if it fits and all the correct 1930 accessories are bolted to it).

I am not a 1930 expert, so do not know if the 1932 engine will bolt up to the 1930 bell housing and 4-speed transmission. (The 1932 used a 3-speed tranny.) Nor do I know if the front engine mount and generator support of the 1932 is the same as the 1930. Member George Teebay (’30 “B” Roadster) or others may be able to answer (chime in, guys).

I would either use the 1930 “A” engine, or the 1932 engine if it fits and if all accessories attach the same. Forget the smaller “C” engine.

My two cents.

Best of luck on your restoration.

Bob

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1931 was the last year that Pierce built both a roadster (on the small chassis) and a convertible coupe (on the large chassis). From 1932 through 1938, only one size 2-passenger (or 4 with rumble seat) open car was built, and they were all, 1932 through 1938, called “Convertible Coupe Roadsters.” Greg – beat ya to looking up these years in my sales lit.

Happy New Year to all,

Bob Jacobsen

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Hi Bill,

I replaced the worm drive in my 836 with a 1934 hypoid assembly a long time ago (factory authorized process), because the bronze worm wheel (what you call the bull gear) was replaced shortly before I got the car with a slightly off-pitch reproduction, and it burned itself up. I still have the entire worm gear assembly (backing-plate flange to backing-plate flange), less axles, and I think (cannot guarantee because I have not taken it apart lately-but it has been in inside storage) that the steel worm shaft is still OK.

Timken made several different ratio worm gear sets (2.78 to 4.57) for Pierce, Nash and Stutz, and my ’33 was 4.29. If yours is also 4.29 (it should be), or 4.43 (the same steel worm shaft is used in both ratios – the setup may be a bit different, but just set it for backlash of 0.010 to 0.018”), I may be able to help.

I also have copies of the original Timken blueprints for both gears (revision date 1971).

A gear-cutting company MAY be able to make a new worm gear from the prints, but to set up for one gear will probably be super expensive, and to accurately make the gear may be a problem (witness Phil Bray’s high-ratio hypoid projects). The shaft was forged, then cut, then hardened in three different zones to minimum Rockwell “B” 72 (soft) on the mounting threads, Rockwell “C” 20-30 (medium) on the splines, and Rockwell “C” 57

minimum (hard) on the worm gear portion.

You are welcome to my whole assembly free of charge if you can arrange for someone to pick it up (I am in CA). I am 70 and do not want to deal with the task of shipping it, or taking it apart again. In the past (15 years ago) I have used Dave’s Transport to reasonably transport large parts to and from different parts of the country, but don’t know if he is still in business. His number was 612-441-3769, but there are many guys that do the same thing.

Your bronze wheel looks pretty good from your picture, but a knowledgeable gear person should inspect it to be sure. And as you probably know, if there is too much wear on the drive side of the teeth, you can flip the gear around, so that the seldom-abused reverse side of the teeth now becomes the forward drive side, extending the life of the gear. You probably also know that you MUST use a non-sulfur-bearing lubricant (not the typical rear end lube), so the bronze wheel does not get attacked. This is the typical failure mode for the gearset – the steel wormshaft is almost always in great shape. It would help if you know the history of lubricants used in your gearset.

Hope this helps. Happy Holidays,

Bob Jacobsen

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The best use for a woman’s pantyhose or nylon stocking (other than encasing a shapely calf) is to put in the upper radiator hose connection to catch all the iron flakes and other crud that could clog the core.

Cheers,

Bob

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I don’t remember the dimensions offhand, but Pierce factory machined a relief at the top of the bore, that I have found in several original engines, both 8’s and 12’s. Don’t know the reason. But the main bore was still around 3.500. Could go measure some tomorrow.

Bob

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Terry,

All 836’s were worm drive. As Greg said, many 33’s were converted (following official P-A factory recommendation) to 4.23 or other ’34/’35 hypoid. Phil Bray’s 3.85 gears fit only ’34-’38 eights, no twelves, no previous. I had problems with 2 of them (batch related?) and do not recommend them.

Phil Hill’s 3.54 gears fit early thirties all, and late thirties 12’s, and are well made with no problems that I know of. However, Phil Hill’s will not work in ’34-’35 eights.

Ed, which style is being discussed with the new contact?

Bob

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To the Dluhys and the 2014 Meet Committee,

We thoroughly enjoyed the meet – the tours, the destinations, the hotel and show field, and of course all our good friends!

Thanks for all your planning.

(Peter – sorry about your impending engine teardown.)

Bob and Nancy

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Hi Bill,

You’re on the right track with your itinerary.

In San Francisco, you could stop by the Academy of Art University Car Collection – they have about a hundred+/- cars, including 6 Pierces, ’31-’38, including the ex-Bernie Weis ’38 convertible. Contact Paul Borgwardt at 925-947-2937 or [email protected] (yes, no “D”) asap to arrange a visit. Tell him I referred you.

In Santa Clara, PAS member John Bertolotti has a big ‘teens collection, with about 10 Pierces. If he’s hard to get, talk to his mechanic, Dan Erceg, also in the PAS roster.

If you can get over to Stockton, you might see if Pat Craig (PAS member) is available – he has about 20 Pierces in his collection.

I think there’s still a ’33 Silver Arrow at the Blackhawk Auto Museum in Danville, but the SF Academy of Art has one, too.

And while you’re in San Francisco, go to the corner of Geary and Polk, and look up at the top floor of the 4-story building – the words “Pierce-Arrow” are engraved in the walls on both sides. This was the dealership from 1914 – late twenties.

Have a great trip!

Bob Jacobsen

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I bought one from Quietride for our 1934 convertible, and am quite pleased with it. They obviously don’t use the old cardboard material that disintegrates over the years. They form to the correct contour out of an abs (I believe) plastic, backed with compressed fabric and aluminum foil insulation.

But is has an original embossed pattern, and holes in the right places.

You can get black (which was too shiny for me – although they can dull it down), dark brown (which I did, and matched old color pretty well) or many other colors. The color, however, is just paint and will wear off if subjected to lots of rubbing.

Nearly impossible to duplicate for the price. I also bought several layers of insulation material from them to replace the kapok between the two firewalls that had turned to dust.

When replacing the insulator on my ’34, I found that the screws that hold the insulator go into nuts behind the interior firewall (not through to the exterior firewall). These nuts are inaccessible to hold unless you remove the outer firewall. If your ’37 is the same (I don’t know), you’ll have a helluva job removing and reinstalling. Since I had my exterior firewall out (to freshen up while the engine was out) I could cut the nuts off the rusty screws. I then enlarged the screw holes in the interior firewall, and installed press-in captive nuts, never to have the problem again.

Bob

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Congratulations, Ed! You indeed found one we didn’t know about. Looks like a neat project. Hope you enjoy it as much as we are enjoying our 1922 Stutz that we pulled out of a barn.

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In typical fashion of hasty auction house research, Worldwide Auctioneers have several errors in their story. I feel the need to set the story straight. Here goes:

They talk of only 2 runs that Ab Jenkins made – the initial one in 1932 and the one in 1934:

“In 1934, Jenkins arranged for his second endurance run on the Salt, the first one that would officially go for the record…Jenkins set out on another endurance race with the same Pierce-Arrow, although this time, equipped with a streamlined boat-tail body.”

The facts are that Ab made THREE runs – the initial run in 1932 that was not sanctioned by AAA, in a stripped-down stock 1932 roadster (175hp); the second run in 1933 (sanctioned), in a stripped-down ported and relieved 1933 roadster (207hp); and the third run in 1934, in a custom bodied speedster (235hp)that the car up for auction is fashioned after.

The second misstatement is “The beautiful 1932 Pierce-Arrow presented is a faithful recreation of the vehicle raced by Ab Jenkins in 1934, constructed in conjunction with Ab’s son, Marvin, who was the chief mechanic on all his father’s record setting drives.”

First of all, the car presented is modeled after the 1934, not a 1932.

Second, Marv Jenkins was about 14 in 1934 (12 in 1932), and while present at the run, and has been a wonderful source of information on this car and the Duesenberg “Mormon Meteors”, contributing to several books, had only general handyman and “go-fer” duties at the run.

Continuing, WWA states “He [Marv] actually helped Ab build the original car in the Pierce-Arrow factory in Cleveland.” Marv was in school in LA at the time, and obviously the P-A factory was in Buffalo. Omar Diles was the Pierce engineer that helped Ab boost the horsepower of the V-12 engine.

Regarding the recreation itself, “A 1932 Pierce-Arrow chassis was located in California…” The 1934 car used a 1934 chassis, of 138/139″ wheelbase, not the 147″ limousine wheelbase 1932 chassis. This resulted in a larger overall car body than the original. The recreation, while a great project and interesting car, has several other differences from the original, for those who care. The original 1934 had the fabulous Stewart-Warner power brakes, while the 1932 chassis has conventional cable mechanical brakes. The dashboard of the recreation has a few mismatched modern gauges as opposed to the full instrument panel correct for the period of the original.

I’ll bet it sounds good though!

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Hi Ed,

As you know, the first 3 pics are of the ’32 (unofficial AAA) run with a ’32 roadster, and the 4th pic is of the ’33 (AAA sanctioned) run with a ’33 roadster. The Price Museum of Speed in Salt Lake recently put out a new film, The Boys of Bonneville, which featured the ’32 and ’33 runs (and some good Studebaker and Duesenberg (Mormon Meteor I and II) footage. I supplied original footage for the ’32 Pierce run, and am credited in the film, along with the PAS. I tried to convince them to include the ’34 run, but they didn’t think they had the space.

Cheers,

Bob

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Hey Ed,

I’ve owned my ’33 839 sedan for 42 years – just short of 2/3 of my life!

Bob

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Hi Jak,

The ’32 owner’s manual shows a 3-spoke wheel, and ’31 pictures show 4-spoke.

Cheers,

Bob Jacobsen

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Hi Carl,

I concur. Don’t change to 12 volts – solve the problem.

I have a ’34 that had an Owen Dyneto starter, that if it didn’t start the first time, would get hotter and hotter (resistance increases with heat, and heat increases with resistance, so it’s a vicious cycle for armature, field windings, battery cables and connections). My starter finally broke, and I installed a 6v Delco 497, no more problem. (Some ’34s came off the line with Delco’s, some with Dyneto’s. If you want to check S/N’s, Delco was used for engine # 305001 to 305435, and from 310392 up on the 8-cyl.)

Use the biggest cables you can buy, and short runs. (Besides, if you changed to 12v., the Startix, clock and horns would burn out, and all the lights would have to be changed.)

Good luck,

Bob

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Hi Bill,

I have an 836 and an 840A. The cap unscrews, very fine thread,lots of penetrating oil.

Best,

Bob Jacobsen

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