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See this long but recent thread on the AACA forums:
http://forums.aaca.org/f169/1930-pierce-arrow-land-speed-record-348722.html
My personal opinion is that it’s a post-war homebuilt…..
Very well said, Dave! The PAS can’t control the eventual fate of printed rosters. Access to the online roster is controlled by usernames and passwords so that trolling bots cannot (I’d better say “probably cannot””) obtain this information.”
G’day Jak,
This appears another example of the handbook having been written before the engineers were completely finished with the design!
No need to drill and tap! To drain, remove the bottom three bolts on the rear diff cover–with drain pan in place, of course. The oil/glue will drain through the bolt holes.
Given the state of the lubricant, I suggest you remove the entire rear cover and scoop out all the hardened or semi-fluid lube. If the diff originally had 600W steam cylinder oil, that stuff tends to thicken over time and no longer lubricates well.
After you have cleaned the inside of the housing as well as you can, you may wish to flush. I use 20W-50 motor oil and drive **slowly** around two or three blocks, then allow it to drain overnight and re-clean the inside of the housing.
In my climate (SF Bay Area, no freezing), I use 140 weight GL-4 hypoid oil in 1929 and later Pierce differentials. Don’t use GL-5 (for limited slip diffs) or GL-6 (synthetic) because their chemical composition will eat away yellow-metal (bronze and brass) bushings and thrust washers. This I found out the hard way, and a Sta-Lube PhD chemist was wrong….
Rather than making a gasket, you can use RTV sparingly to seal the cover/diff housing surfaces.
Please keep us posted!
George
Dave, that’s called a “kick shackle” at the front of the left front spring (only) for the announced purpose of “reducing wheel fight” and was installed midyear in **1930.** You **may** have a frame from a 1930 Model C (132″ wheelbase) or from a 1930 Model B OPEN car (134″ wheelbase). Model B closed cars had 139″ wheelbase.
According to the 1930 parts manual, different front fenders were used beginning not with the kick shackle but about 100 cars later, perhaps indicating that there may have been some sheet metal interference under driving conditions.
If you can post some photos and give the engine number (and chassis number if it’s still there), we can probably positively identify what you have.
Neil, if you can post your year and model, we can probably help you with this. I checked your online roster entry to see if a car was listed and didn’t find any.
George
Art, our member Paul Jacobs in NY was reproducing Series 80 radiator caps, and they are VERY nice–made of delrin, as I recall. You can drill Paul’s cap to accept your Motometer.
George
The term “Club Brougham” is often misused, even by P-A owners (horrors!).
I concur with comments by Peter and Rick.
Compounding the confusion are the factors that many manufacturers in the mid-1920s called their full-rear-seat 2-door offering a “coach.” Pierce-Arrow called their entire flat-roof Series 80 line the “Coach Series.” So it appears that your car could be described, tongue-in-cheek, as a “Coach coach.” As W.C. Fields was wont to remark, “Pardon my redundancy.” 
Your body style in a Series 80 is thus correctly described, as Peter said, a “two-door coach.” The full-rear-seat two-door was only offered in the Coach sub-series.
A little about the Coach sub-series of Series 80 cars: The Series 80 was intended to compete with the Packard 6 (initially called the “Single Six” when Packard still offered the “Twin Six” V-12) but the Series 80 “Deluxe” closed models were priced at about $650 more than comparable bodies on the Packard 6 chassis. To become more competitive at the Packard 6 price point, PAMCC developed the Series 80 Coach (vs Deluxe) sub-series with only closed body styles, and where there were similar models (5-p sedan, 7-p sedan, and even EDL) the Coach series body styles sold for $650 less than comparable body styles in Deluxe sub-series.) Either PAMCC lost money on the Coach series (doubtful) or they had a high profit margin on the Deluxe series. That is, the Coach sub-series was a terrific buy at the time and no one should look down their noses at one.
Other differences between Deluxe and Coach were two-piece (D) vs one-piece (C) windshields, mahogany interior window moldings (D) vs painted woodgrain steel moldings (C), and two (D) vs one (C) external beltline moldings. Certainly not a $650 difference in cost to build….
In my own view, perhaps the best-looking Series 80 closed car is the close-coupled sedan in the Coach sub-series.
Enjoy and take pride in your car, Tim!
Best regards,
George
The car has been sold. Hopefully we will see it at the Annual Meet in Minden.
What I think i was saying in the above is that the first criterion is to use oils with sufficient ZDDP.
Tom’s issue is primarily the suitable “weight” (i.e., viscosity) of oils. I recall Atlanta summer temperatures (actually, Fort Benning’s) all too well, and believe that your garage may drop below freezing during the winters, but not too much. Given those considerations, either 15W-40 or 20W-50 might serve as all-season oils, assuming that Pierce-Arrows are rarely started or driven on your coldest days.
I have two Series 80s, one (the sedan) whose engine has never been rebuilt and still has its original iron pistons, and one (the coupe) whose engine was rebuilt 11,000 miles ago with modern aluminum pistons in the 1980s.
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area where it never drops below freezing in the garages.
In the “looser” engine (sedan)I use my remaining stock of 20W-50 API SL oil, which has significantly more ZDDP than today’s API SN oils.
In the rebuilt engine (coupe), I use diesel-grade 15W-40 oil, either Chevron RPM Delo 400 or Shell Rotella (the latter is said to have a greater amount of ZZDP). For both of these, I find the best prices at WalMart or other mass retailers. Diesel-approved oils are authorized, by law, to have substantially more ZDDP than the current SN gasoline engine oils.
In all cars, I change the oil HOT at least once per year, usually in the fall. Detergent oils lose their detergency by oxidation over time as much as by mileage, so I believe it’s necessary to change the oil at least once a year irrespective of how few miles I’ve driven.
This is a complicated issue which has been addressed many times on the Message Board and in the Service Bulletins in recent years.
The foregoing is not intended to be a comprehensive review of the subject, which has many variables, including winter temperatures. Some swear that if an engine has been run for years on non-detergent oils, such oils should continue to be used. When I acquired the sedan 19 years ago, I weaned it off the non-detergent oil it was accustomed to by (1) dropping the pan, lines to main bearings, and oil pump screen and cleaning them out, (2) filling with 6 qts non-detergent and 3 qts detergent, (3) running the car 300 miles and changing oil HOT to 6 qts detergent and 3 qts non-detergent, (4) after 500 miles changing to full detergent. There have been no ill effects detectable from this procedure.
In the very early days of detergent oils (1950s), the detergency was much higher and there was THEN indeed a risk that detergent oils could turn loose deposits which could potentially clog oil passages and cause a catastrophic engine failure. That was 60 years ago! Now, most authorities agree that modern detergent oils will not loosen existing deposits.
It comes down to one’s own decision. Please do your own research. The above is what I do, and I’ve never had any ill effects, and I love to DRIVE my Pierce-Arrows!
I concur with all previous advice. I use two Optimas in parallel in both my 1930 and 1934 8-cyl cars, more for the reserve than for more starting power.
Reserve issue: A 6V Optima has 90-100 amp hrs (AH) of reserve capacity. Factors specs for a 1934 8-cyl lead-acid battery are 140 AH, and 165 AH for a 12-cyl. Reserve is necessary for running at night with a charging deficit with all lights on, given that the factory Delco generator produces only 25 amps cold, and about 18 amps when hot, even with the third brush turned all the way up. If you wish, I can send you a photo showing the hookup. Two Optimas afford 180-200 AH of reserve capacity.
More on reserve: I use #1129 bulbs in both tail and stop lights for improved visibility, and these draw more current than the standard bulbs, resulting in more deficit at night.
Other suggestions for better starting:
1. For battery cables, use 00 (“double-ought”) welding cable with the battery ground cable connected to a starter mounting bolt. A local battery company here will make customers such a cable to customer specs while-u-wait.
2. Ensure that paint is removed from the ear of the starter where the cable attaches, and from the bell housing where the starter fits. Then follow Chris’s suggestion about coating the connection with dielectric ignition grease to prevent corrosion. I also use star washers under the bolts of ground connections to improve the ground by biting into the metal.
3. Check your secondary grounds: you should have one ground strap from the engine to the frame (this counters the insulation provided by the rubber motor mounts), and another from the body to the frame. On general principles, I refresh those ground connections about every three years.
One benefit of the Optimas that offsets their acquisition cost is their longevity: The pair of Optimas in my 1930 are now **twelve** years old and they have not slowed a bit. Another is that, generally, Optimas need not be on a maintenance charger over the winter or other periods of non-use. That is, they hold a charge much better and far longer than lead-acid batteries.
However, Optimas are not good at tolerating a major depletion (running dead).
Remember that Pierces, Cadillacs and Packards (and lesser cars) got along very well on 6 volt systems when new. Do you think that buyers who spent so much money on these cars would have tolerated poor starting performance?
The downside to 6V systems is that the ground connections need to be refreshed more often than on 12V systems. Given the cost and aggravation of conversion, periodic refreshing of ground connections is a very small price to pay.
Good luck–and please keep it 6-volt!
George
I failed to give credit where credit is due–Greg Loftness, who used to work for Onan, identified this condenser as having the proper microfarad value and being suitable for our cars in a long-ago post.
The number for the original condenser is Delco 17307…BUT I wouldn’t use a NOS one. as the internal insulation is nothing more than wax paper which has almost certainly deteriorated just from shelf life by now.
I use Onan part no. 312-0256 on my 1920s and 1930s Pierces. They were $10.95 each plus shipping from http://www.onanparts.com in April of this year. The are highly heat-resistant condensers of the common modern appearance, and may not fit inside your distributor without a little machine work to the distributor plate. Or, mount your new condenser on the coil if judging points are not that important.
Several of us having been searching for a print media obituary without success since receiving the sad news.
In the meantime, please post your personal recollections of Eric in this thread.
Eric was the PAS Chief Judge for many years, a pre-eminent restorer of Pierce-Arrows and other extraordinarily fine vehicles, and the current consummate authority on P-A authenticity issues and mechanical techniques. He was a frequent contributor to Service Bulletins over many years. He gave freely of his time to consult with many of us on mechanical and authenticity issues. He was among the first to stop and help when one of us broke down on tour. Eric was a wonderful human being and a superb resource to all members of the PAS.
We send our deepest condolences to his family, and the message that we will always fondly and gratefully remember his superb contributions of the world of Pierce-Arrow and to the Pierce-Arrow Society.
Congratulations, Fay! We’re all even more proud of you!
I’m delighted to see these responses.
I’ve often asked, “Which car is your favorite?” to which my usual reply is “Which child is your favorite? They are all different, even one Series 80 (unrestored but repainted) vs the other (older body-off restoration), and I don’t prefer one over another. I immerse myself in the period of the car I’m driving at the time, and marvel at the technological progress over the span of a few short years (1925-36 for my Pierces).”
That said, last month Greg Long installed a Mitchell overdrive in my 1925 80 sedan (the unrestored car) factory-equipped with the stump-pulling 4.89 gears. For S80 cars, the factory mandated the ratio (4.45, 4.65, or 4.89 based on sales location rather than body style or customer preference. Pre-overdrive, the sedan’s sweet spot was 36-38 mph, now it’s 48 mph. That’s about as fast as I’ll ever want to go in that car, but it’s a relief that I’m no longer punishing the engine during the occasional run on a 40 mph-minimum interstate highway. The restored S80 coupe has factory 4.45 gears which permit a comfortable-enough 42-45 mph.
Perfect answer, Paul!
Gene, I’m truly sorry you’ve had problems with THREE P-4259 pumps. You’re right, the “4269” is a typo and I should have caught it–my apologies.
Having to tap the pumps to get them going seems to be an indication of bad electrical connections, especially on three separate units, unless Carter’s (the manufacturer of my P-4259s sold by NAPA) quality control is very bad indeed. The P-4259 and other rotary vane pumps are not grounded through the bracket to the frame, as are the EP-11 pulse-style or diaphragm-style pumps, but use a separate grounding wire from a post on the pump. I drill a hole for the ground, remove paint around the hole, use a self-tapping metal screw–AND put a star washer under the screw to bite into the grounding surface.
I’ve had these P-4259 pumps on three cars for at least six and up to ten years with not a single issue.
The P-4259 instructions as to positive and negative leads are for negative ground cars, and our Pierces are positive ground. You may try reversing the connections.
Also note that the EP-11 pumps draw only about 4 amps, whereas the rotary vane pumps draw twice that, so a marginal ground on a rotary vane pump may be more troublesome.
Here’s why I no longer use EP-11 style pumps: One cannot tell from looking at the pump (or even the box–and it may have been re-boxed) whether the diaphragm material is designed with ethanol in mind. That is, when was the pump built or how fresh is it? On one of my “lesser cars”, a 1949 Willys Jeepster, an EP-11 would no longer pump fuel after 5,000 miles and 10 years. I removed the diaphragm cover and found that the diaphragm had turned to mush (the best term I can think of at the moment), and at the time I could find neither a source of replacement diaphragms nor any vendor who would guarantee that his new EP-11 contained a diaphragm that was resistant to ethanol. This information is three years old, so perhaps now EP-11s that are factory ethanol-resistant may be so marked.
I’d be interested in knowing of a vendor of ethanol-resistant diaphragms for EP-11 pumps, because I have three I haven’t thrown out yet!
Best wishes on getting a pump that’s reliable, and I’m sorry about your bad experience.
Best regards,
George
The “Type A” tail/stop/backup light assembly was used 1924 thru 1930, although some of the individual light bezels differ. As I recall, the screws are 4-40 (#4, 40 threads per inch), and the length required varies with the bezel. For most, about 5/8 to 3/4 inch length will work. The screws are slotted, oval head, countersunk.
I was able to find a small package of military surplus screws in stainless steel, which, after a couple of seconds on the buffer, look very good with either nickel or chrome bezels.
George
NAPA P-4269 (2-6 lbs) comes in a NAPA box but with a Carter sticker on the unit. It is likely not the shelf but they can have it for you in a day or two. Also, at $60-65 (last one purchased 2 yrs ago), that pump is about half the price I was quoted elsewhere.
You can try it without a pressure regulator, and if your carb floods, use a Holley #12-804 regulator which is far superior to the cheap detent models made overseas under the Purolator name. The Holley regulator can be found at performance auto parts stores.
